Fire Regs (the duplicate has now been locked)

[hard-work]

Thanks. The block is 100 years old and the kitchen door was not fireproof to modern standards. I hear what people are saying, but the kitchen door is never closed, so it is near useless, being a firedoor or not. So in reality it is a just a nuisance. As I pointed out, the diagram shows no door between kitchen and the flat's main door and and the furthest point in the kitchen was well less than 9 metres. It appears the regs do allow the kitchen door to be removed. Of course smoke and heat alarms will be fitted.

Does anyone agree that it is 'legal'?

 

[Nakajo]

You would close the kitchen door in the event of a fire, so people could evacuate.

 

[tony1851]

If the staircase is not in a protected lobby (ie if you can walk from your flat entrance to the stairs without having to go through another door) then your flat entrance hall has to be protected by fire doors to each habitable room opening off it. This is to prevent smoke from any of your rooms by-passing the flat entrance door and filling the staircase enclosure.
As the block is 100 years old, it will have been upgraded as regards fire precautions in the not-too-distant past; you should not make the situation any worse, regardless of what the 'fire regs' are today.

 

[tony1851]

the diagram shows no door between kitchen and the flat's main door and and the furthest point in the kitchen was well less than 9 metres. It appears the regs do allow the kitchen door to be removed. Of course smoke and heat alarms will be fitted.

Does anyone agree that it is 'legal'?

That diagram is only concerned with travel distance to the flat entrance (ie escape within the flat). It has nothing to do with the layout of the communal area of the block - particularly the staircase. You have to bear in mind that alterations you do in your own flat can have implications for the whole block.

I agree that AD B does seem convoluted; there were moves recently to try and simplify the guidance but nothing seems to have happened yet

 

[bernardgreen]

So in reality it is a just a nuisance.

In your day to day life style it might be just a nuisance.....

But when there is a fire in the kitchen you will be able to close the door to contain the fire and smoke long enough to get you and the rest of the family / guests out of the flat.

Have you ever tried evacuating your flat in darkness by feeling your way along the wall ( or floor where there may be less smoke ). ?? Blindfolds create the "darkness" for practise but without the smoke and fumes that can create panic.

 

[hard-work]

If the staircase is not in a protected lobby (ie if you can walk from your flat entrance to the stairs without having to go through another door) then your flat entrance hall has to be protected by fire doors to each habitable room opening off it. This is to prevent smoke from any of your rooms by-passing the flat entrance door and filling the staircase enclosure.
As the block is 100 years old, it will have been upgraded as regards fire precautions in the not-too-distant past; you should not make the situation any worse, regardless of what the 'fire regs' are today.

The common staircase is stone and open with no doors.

bernardgreen, I know the place backwards.

 

[hard-work]

the diagram shows no door between kitchen and the flat's main door and and the furthest point in the kitchen was well less than 9 metres. It appears the regs do allow the kitchen door to be removed. Of course smoke and heat alarms will be fitted.

Does anyone agree that it is 'legal'?

That diagram is only concerned with travel distance to the flat entrance (ie escape within the flat). It has nothing to do with the layout of the communal area of the block - particularly the staircase. You have to bear in mind that alterations you do in your own flat can have implications for the whole block.

I agree that AD B does seem convoluted; there were moves recently to try and simplify the guidance but nothing seems to have happened yet

Tony, the diagram does show an open plan with no hall and the front door opening into the kitchen. If that was not legal why would they print that diagram? I agree the document is not clear enough.

 

[Nakajo]

Ultimately, we can't stop you doing whatever stupid thing you want to do. We can only tell you that it's a bad idea, that it may invalidate your insurance, that it may expose you to criminal prosecution and that it may kill or incapacitate you and/or your loved ones. No doubt you'll come back with endless arguments to convince us that it's ok really, but really, we're not the ones that need convincing.

 

[bernardgreen]

bernardgreen, I know the place backwards

Some of the people who died before they found the exit route knew their house backwards, some of those rescued said that their house was totally different when filled with smoke.

( source :-- LFB fire safety seminar some time in the 1980's )

 

[hard-work]

Ultimately, we can't stop you doing whatever stupid thing you want to do.

DO NOT INSULT ME! It's a bad idea in YOUR eyes. I want to know the regs and YOU do not know them coming with opinion after opinion not fact.

 

[hard-work]

bernardgreen, I know the place backwards

Some of the people who died before they found the exit route knew their house backwards, some of those rescued said that their house was totally different when filled with smoke.

( source :-- LFB fire safety seminar some time in the 1980's )

My kitchen door is rarely closed. If there is a fire in the kitchen while I am asleep by the time I get to the hallway due to the smoke/heat alarms, I will be out of the front door and will not be closing the kitchen door. The linked document pretty well says the kitchen door can be removed. I pointed to the diagram. Can anyone add anything that negates that?

 

[tony1851]

the diagram shows no door between kitchen and the flat's main door and and the furthest point in the kitchen was well less than 9 metres. It appears the regs do allow the kitchen door to be removed. Of course smoke and heat alarms will be fitted.

Does anyone agree that it is 'legal'?

That diagram is only concerned with travel distance to the flat entrance (ie escape within the flat). It has nothing to do with the layout of the communal area of the block - particularly the staircase. You have to bear in mind that alterations you do in your own flat can have implications for the whole block.

I agree that AD B does seem convoluted; there were moves recently to try and simplify the guidance but nothing seems to have happened yet

Tony, the diagram does show an open plan with no hall and the front door opening into the kitchen. If that was not legal why would they print that diagram? I agree the document is not clear enough.

Is it diagram 3 you are looking at?
If so, that is only concerned with means of escape within the flat. The diagram is intended to show that, in cases where there is an open plan, the kitchen should be remote from the exit from the flat, and also that the travel distance should not be > 9m.

What happens outside the flat door is a different matter, and the arrangement shown in diag 3 can only be used in cases where the communal staircase is protected by a lobby (ie if there is a fire door at the head of the stairs). As in your case there is no door between the stairs and your flat entrance door, your own hallway has to be protected by fire doors on the lounge, bedroom and kitchen.

 

[hard-work]

tony, page 22 section 2.3, provisions for flat above 4.5m above ground level. It give THREE approaches to choose from.

Page 23 second choice, b). It points to diagram 3. Diagram 3 gives two layouts, One has no entrance hall to the flat. That is very clear.
Choice b) makes three points:

1. Must less than 9 metres from flats entrance door to the furthest point in the kitchen.
2. The cooking facilities must be remote at the far end of the kitchen.
3. The cooking facilities must not prejudice an escape route from any point in the flat.

In my case:

1. It is within 9 metres to the entrance door of the flat - about 6 metres at most.
2. The cooking facilities are remote at the far end of the kitchen
3. The cooking facilities do not prejudice an escape route from any point in the flat.

All quite clear. Do you agree?

These are advantages, only that:
The cooking facilities are near an opening window onto an open masonry landing to atmosphere.
The open stone stairs outside are not an issue and not a restriction in case of fire and are greatly beneficial.

 

[endecotp]

Page 23 second choice, b). It points to diagram 3. Diagram 3 gives two layouts, One has no entrance hall to the flat. That is very clear.
Choice b) makes three points:

1. Must less than 9 metres from flats entrance door to the furthest point in the kitchen.

No, it must be less than 9m to the furthest pount in ANY HABITABLE ROOM. How far is it from your front door to the furthest point in your bedroom or living room?

 

[endecotp]

DO NOT INSULT ME!

Here's how this forum works: someone has some idea, and they come here looking for confirmation that their idea is possible / legal / sensible. If we agree, everyone is happy. If we disagree, the person says we don't know what we're talking about, that we are being insulting, etc. This happens all the time, and we're used to it. If you want thoughtful honest answers, read what we write. If you just want someone to agree with you, go somewhere else.