Minor Work Certificate

[arc5]

Hi,

I am not a qualified electrician. I was however told that I could carry out certain work myself by an electrician I know. The work as I understand it, comes under Part P 'Non Notifiable Work'. More specifically, I want to spur of an existing socket to create a new one on the the other side of the room. I want to replace the light switch with a dimmer switch, and I want to replace the central light fitting.

I plan to sell the house and am concerned the solicitor will ask me for certificates that I don't have. I've read that a solicitor can ask for one or all of the following: 1)copy of signed BS7671 Electrical Safety Certificate, 2) the installer's Building Regulations Compliance Certificate, 3) the Building Control Completion Certificate.

My electrician friend said that I could download and fill in a minor works certificate. As I am not qualified and only have apprentice experience I'm concerned that I am not allowed to fill out my own MWC as it states I need to be a 'Competent Person', and that this would not suffice when it cam to meeting the solicitors certificate requests.

So.....my questions are, As the work is 'Non Notifiable' do I need to get a MWC, can I fill it out myself, and would a solicitor ask for this certificate and accept it? If not could I do the work myself and then just get a condition report done (hopefully passed) and give this to the solicitor?

Thanks,

Andy

 

[Lower]

Obvious questions first:
1. How will a solicitor know that you've done non notifiable works
2. Is a minor works certificate required- its non notifiable works. The clue is in the name.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I am not a qualified electrician. I was however told that I could carry out certain work myself by an electrician I know.

You may do the work; whether you can - satisfactorily - is a different matter.

The work as I understand it, comes under Part P 'Non Notifiable Work'.

Part P applies to all work and merely states:

It is not related to whether the work is notifiable or not.
That is separate Building Regulations and applies to very little work now in England.

More specifically, I want to spur of an existing socket to create a new one on the the other side of the room. I want to replace the light switch with a dimmer switch, and I want to replace the central light fitting.

You may, so carry on but:
to comply with Part P all work (within reason) should be tested to ensure it is safe

I plan to sell the house and am concerned the solicitor will ask me for certificates that I don't have.

He will if you tell them that work has been carried out since 2005.

I've read that a solicitor can ask for one or all of the following: 1)copy of signed BS7671 Electrical Safety Certificate,

There is no such thing.
You should complete an Electrical Installation Certificate or a Minor Electrical Installation Work Certificate.

2) the installer's Building Regulations Compliance Certificate, 3) the Building Control Completion Certificate.

One or other of them would only be obtained for notifiable work.

My electrician friend said that I could download and fill in a minor works certificate.

You may; anyone may.

As I am not qualified and only have apprentice experience I'm concerned that I am not allowed to fill out my own MWC as it states I need to be a 'Competent Person', and that this would not suffice when it cam to meeting the solicitors certificate requests.

Competent in this case only relates to the English meaning of the word - not belonging to a Competent Persons Scheme for self-certification which would be better called self-notification.

So.....my questions are, As the work is 'Non Notifiable' do I need to get a MWC,

It would be better - but is hardly worth it for changing a light switch; it would be a good idea for the new socket to show that the circuit is sound.

can I fill it out myself,

Yes.

and would a solicitor ask for this certificate and accept it?

He will but only if you tell him work has been done since 2005.
He will not understand it.

If not could I do the work myself and then just get a condition report done (hopefully passed) and give this to the solicitor?

Don't bother.
If the buyer wants one let them commission and pay for it.
Tell them the price is for the house is "as it is".

 

[EFLImpudence]

2. Is a minor works certificate required- its non notifiable works. The clue is in the name.

A certificate should be issued for all work (within reason).

Certificates and Notification have nothing to do with each other.

 

[Lower]

I admit to an element of sarcasm. Ie don't notify the solicitor. You will just confuse them.

 

[^woody^]

You dont need a certificate, or to notify or anything else to fit that spur or light fittings - nor qualifications.

All you need is a screwdriver, knife, cable, socket and box, drill,bit, plug, screw and the fittings.

 

[arc5]

Obvious questions first:
1. How will a solicitor know that you've done non notifiable works
2. Is a minor works certificate required- its non notifiable works. The clue is in the name.

Thanks for your reply @Lower. 1) My original thought was that I should try to be completely honest with the solicitor at point of sale. So my plan was to do the work correctly, fill out the MWC myself, admit that work had been carried out, and then hand over my MWC to the solicitors. However......from reading the replies, it sounds like production of the MWC may be overkill / unnecessary.

 

[arc5]

You may do the work; whether you can - satisfactorily - is a different matter.


Part P applies to all work and merely states:

View attachment 115709

It is not related to whether the work is notifiable or not.
That is separate Building Regulations and applies to very little work now in England.


You may, so carry on but:
to comply with Part P all work (within reason) should be tested to ensure it is safe


He will if you tell them that work has been carried out since 2005.


There is no such thing.
You should complete an Electrical Installation Certificate or a Minor Electrical Installation Work Certificate.

One or other of them would only be obtained for notifiable work.


You may; anyone may.

Competent in this case only relates to the English meaning of the word - not belonging to a Competent Persons Scheme for self-certification which would be better called self-notification.


It would be better - but is hardly worth it for changing a light switch; it would be a good idea for the new socket to show that the circuit is sound.

Yes.

He will but only if you tell him work has been done since 2005.
He will not understand it.


Don't bother.
If the buyer wants one let them commission and pay for it.
Tell them the price is for the house is "as it is".

Thanks EFLImpudence for you detailed breakdown and answer! So Ideally, I would like to be honest with the solicitor (maybe this is overkill). I would like to tell the solicitor that I have carried out a load of minor electrical work and hand over MWC for all relevant work that I've carried out. So are you saying that these certificates would therefor be legally valid if I carried out the work correctly, tested correctly and I filled them out correctly. Also 'within reason' legally feels a little loose / open to interpretation, is this the case?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Ideally, I would like to be honest with the solicitor (maybe this is overkill). I would like to tell the solicitor that I have carried out a load of minor electrical work and hand over MWC for all relevant work that I've carried out. So are you saying that these certificates would therefor be legally valid if I carried out the work correctly, tested correctly and I filled them out correctly. Also 'within reason' legally feels a little loose / open to interpretation, is this the case?

Yes, for example, IF you correctly test the socket circuit for (assuming it is a) ring continuity to make sure it is safe and sound, then you may as well record your results on a MEIWC.

You could test the circuit at the light fitting.
What equipment and knowledge do you have?
Can you test the Earth Fault Loop Impedance?
Again, if you do it, you may as well record it.

I wouldn't bother with a certificate for changing a light switch but you could just test that the cpc(earth) is actually connected to earth.



It should be pointed out that your new spur, if using concealed cable, and the socket should be RCD protected.

 

[ericmark]

If the electrical work is done by notifying the local authority building control before you start, and they do the inspection and testing, then they will NOT issue a minor works or installation certificate, all you will get is a completion certificate. Only if they do not test and inspect will the person doing the work be required to raise a minor works or installation certificate which will be submitted to the council. The latter is what I did.

Since then I have had a stair lift installed, a new kitchen with its own consumer unit installed, a odd socket to power door bell installed, and the rest of the house rewired. Reading the certificates it is impossible to work out who did what work, in real terms they are pointless, without some extra information to say what is covered by each bit of paper, if as an electrician I can't work out who did what, what chance do you think an solicitor has?

In real terms the solicitor will send some type of inspector, and if he decides that the electrics look suspect then he will request an Electrical Installation Condition Report (EICR) even with a new house the electrician will likely find something which does not comply, if he can find something then it means some one else will take the can if he misses something. The person who corrects faults found will have to inspect and test so this will replace the EICR. You only have to read these pages to see how many times silly things get added to the EICR when changing owners, the electrician is watching his back, not giving a true report.

Don't bother.
If the buyer wants one let them commission and pay for it.
Tell them the price is for the house is "as it is".

Best bit of advice in my mind. Pass on any certificates you do have, but don't worry about anything you don't have, and don't admit doing any work yourself.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ideally, I would like to be honest with the solicitor (maybe this is overkill). I would like to tell the solicitor that I have carried out a load of minor electrical work and hand over MWC for all relevant work that I've carried out.

Ideally you should not voluntarily do things which are only going to cause you more work, problems etc. I'm pretty sure that the solicitor will only ask about notifiable work, in which case you answer "none".

So are you saying that these certificates would therefor be legally valid if I carried out the work correctly, tested correctly and I filled them out correctly.

"Legally valid" re a MEIWC is an interesting situation. There is no legal requirement for you to issue one. You may quite lawfully do all of the work which you describe and not bother to fill one in. Which is good, because you cannot fill one in. I don't mean legally/formally "may not" - there are no restrictions on who may or may not, and there are no requirements for any particular qualifications. But to complete one you have to sign this declaration:

I CERTIFY that the said works do not impair the safety of the existing installation, that the said works have been designed, constructed, inspected and tested in accordance with BS 7671:2008 (IET Wiring Regulations), amended to .................. (date) and that the said works, to the best of my knowledge and belief, at the time of my inspection, complied with BS 7671 except as detailed in Part 1 above.​

and that's where a problem arises, for you can't really know whether what you did complied with BS 7671, and there is no way that you are equipped to carry out the testing which you would need to do to comply with it.

So the situation is that nothing can be done to or about you if you do this work and do not have or do not complete a MEIWC. But if you do complete one then you will be giving a document with a signed statement which is untrue, and one where it could easily be shown that you knew it to be untrue, to a solicitor in connection with a financial transaction with a value of several hundred thousand pounds. That does not seem to me to be a good idea.

Also 'within reason' legally feels a little loose / open to interpretation, is this the case?

Those of a cynical disposition might wonder if, because the laws are drafted by lawyers, they aren't going to be too prescriptive because that would then mean that lawyers could no longer earn a living by arguing with each other about what laws mean.

Just truthfully answer any questions a solicitor asks, and only those questions. Do not volunteer information which he has not asked for, and do not, under any circumstances, provide him with a signed statement claiming you know or did things which you demonstrably could not know or have done.

 

[ericmark]

Yes, for example, IF you correctly test the socket circuit for (assuming it is a) ring continuity to make sure it is safe and sound, then you may as well record your results on a MEIWC.

You could test the circuit at the light fitting.
What equipment and knowledge do you have?
Can you test the Earth Fault Loop Impedance?
Again, if you do it, you may as well record it.

I wouldn't bother with a certificate for changing a light switch but you could just test that the cpc(earth) is actually connected to earth.



It should be pointed out that your new spur, if using concealed cable, and the socket should be RCD protected.

Again very good advice, the cheapest meter that can test earth loop impedance is likely the EZ150 which has just 8 lights, and first one is set to 1.5Ω which is higher than the pass mark, so although it may give you piece of mind it is no good to fill in forms, so in real terms the meters will likely cost more than having an EICR done.

Also the regulations say that an EICR should be done every 10 years or on change of occupant, until the occupant changes there is not point doing an EICR, and after the new occupant has moved in any faults could be down to new occupant anyway, so unless there is something rather serious then can't really come back to you, there are three classes of fault, C3 improvement recommended your not interested in, that's up to new owner, C1 Danger present, Risk of injury immediate remedial action required, clearly the new occupant would have just cause coming back to you and asking you to fix it.

However C2 Potentially dangerous urgent remedial action required, includes some items which to be frank has nothing to do with the installation, like overloading a socket, and some which clearly does not consider the rules in force when the installation was done. For example RCD protection. The Best Practice Guide includes things like the asbestos pad being missing in a fuse holder, and I am not so sure that's not a good thing to be missing! Some of the references are daft,

Earth fault loop impedance value greater than that required for operation of the protective device within the time prescribed in the version of BS 7671/IEE/IET Wiring Regulations or manufacturers’ published data current at the time of installation.

sounds great, however try getting a copy of the Wiring regulations current in 1954 and you will see how daft it is. In real terms C2 means there must be another fault before it becomes dangerous, it is potentially dangerous, but not dangerous as it stands. So to my mind any C2 faults should not worry you, they are for new occupant to worry about, at the moment it's OK.

For new owner to try to get C2 faults repaired read they want an extra price reduction if they can get it.

 

[arc5]

Yes, for example, IF you correctly test the socket circuit for (assuming it is a) ring continuity to make sure it is safe and sound, then you may as well record your results on a MEIWC.

You could test the circuit at the light fitting.
What equipment and knowledge do you have?
Can you test the Earth Fault Loop Impedance?
Again, if you do it, you may as well record it.

I wouldn't bother with a certificate for changing a light switch but you could just test that the cpc(earth) is actually connected to earth.

It should be pointed out that your new spur, if using concealed cable, and the socket should be RCD protected.

I haven't invested in any testing equipment yet. I've run lots of cable, fitted and wired sockets and light fittings etc but have only helped out on one condition report. Although I'm going to have the opportunity to do lots more non notifiable electrical work in future and that I feel quite competent, the more I think about it, it doesn't sound like I should be attempting to carry out these tests or fill out a MWC.

Thanks for you help

 

[arc5]

Ideally you should not voluntarily do things which are only going to cause you more work, problems etc. I'm pretty sure that the solicitor will only ask about notifiable work, in which case you answer "none".



"Legally valid" re a MEIWC is an interesting situation. There is no legal requirement for you to issue one. You may quite lawfully do all of the work which you describe and not bother to fill one in. Which is good, because you cannot fill one in. I don't mean legally/formally "may not" - there are no restrictions on who may or may not, and there are no requirements for any particular qualifications. But to complete one you have to sign this declaration:

I CERTIFY that the said works do not impair the safety of the existing installation, that the said works have been designed, constructed, inspected and tested in accordance with BS 7671:2008 (IET Wiring Regulations), amended to .................. (date) and that the said works, to the best of my knowledge and belief, at the time of my inspection, complied with BS 7671 except as detailed in Part 1 above.​

and that's where a problem arises, for you can't really know whether what you did complied with BS 7671, and there is no way that you are equipped to carry out the testing which you would need to do to comply with it.

So the situation is that nothing can be done to or about you if you do this work and do not have or do not complete a MEIWC. But if you do complete one then you will be giving a document with a signed statement which is untrue, and one where it could easily be shown that you knew it to be untrue, to a solicitor in connection with a financial transaction with a value of several hundred thousand pounds. That does not seem to me to be a good idea.



Those of a cynical disposition might wonder if, because the laws are drafted by lawyers, they aren't going to be too prescriptive because that would then mean that lawyers could no longer earn a living by arguing with each other about what laws mean.

Just truthfully answer any questions a solicitor asks, and only those questions. Do not volunteer information which he has not asked for, and do not, under any circumstances, provide him with a signed statement claiming you know or did things which you demonstrably could not know or have done.

Again very good advice, the cheapest meter that can test earth loop impedance is likely the EZ150 which has just 8 lights, and first one is set to 1.5Ω which is higher than the pass mark, so although it may give you piece of mind it is no good to fill in forms, so in real terms the meters will likely cost more than having an EICR done.

Also the regulations say that an EICR should be done every 10 years or on change of occupant, until the occupant changes there is not point doing an EICR, and after the new occupant has moved in any faults could be down to new occupant anyway, so unless there is something rather serious then can't really come back to you, there are three classes of fault, C3 improvement recommended your not interested in, that's up to new owner, C1 Danger present, Risk of injury immediate remedial action required, clearly the new occupant would have just cause coming back to you and asking you to fix it.

However C2 Potentially dangerous urgent remedial action required, includes some items which to be frank has nothing to do with the installation, like overloading a socket, and some which clearly does not consider the rules in force when the installation was done. For example RCD protection. The Best Practice Guide includes things like the asbestos pad being missing in a fuse holder, and I am not so sure that's not a good thing to be missing! Some of the references are daft,
sounds great, however try getting a copy of the Wiring regulations current in 1954 and you will see how daft it is. In real terms C2 means there must be another fault before it becomes dangerous, it is potentially dangerous, but not dangerous as it stands. So to my mind any C2 faults should not worry you, they are for new occupant to worry about, at the moment it's OK.

For new owner to try to get C2 faults repaired read they want an extra price reduction if they can get it.

Thanks both for very helpful answers.

So it sounds like I can legally carry out these minor works and I shouldn't try to test or fill out a MWC for them, nor should I tell the solicitor about them unless specifically asked. In a situation where a solicitor does ask about them and asks for a certificate I will then admit I don't have these certificates as not legally obliged to produce. If the buyer asks for a condition report as a result I can then try and get them to pay for it but failing that pay for it myself. Alternatively / additionally they may ask for a price reduction. Are there any other demands by the buyer / mortgage company that might be made at this stage as a result e.g. me being asked to take out indemnity insurance as a result?

Thanks

 

[arc5]

I forgot to mention I also plan on converting a single pendant light into four LED downlights in the sitting room. This will involved extending the existing cable. It is my understanding that this is also Non Notifiable work. Could someone confirm please (I've had a look at the forum and other people seem to suggest this).

Cheers