230 volt 5 amp relay in box what options.

[mattylad]

Those relay bases are really bad at accepting bootlace crimps, they don't like it up em...

 

[SUNRAY]

Those relay bases are really bad at accepting bootlace crimps, they don't like it up em...

I find them to be OK, a lot depends on the crimper used, if they're crimped with cutters or pliers then yes I agree with you.

 

[ericmark]

Main reason for using bootlace crimps was to hold the cables numbers on the cable, but in the case shown, some one it seems forgot to fit the numbers. I used a rule of thumb over three timers then better to use a PLC, and in the main when I used a PLC I would number to match the PLC terminals.

However I have altered control boxes so often because of some over sight, I very carefully laid out a panel very proud of how neat, but did not have the 24 volt contactors in stock, so spaced with 400 volt version, then the 24 volt version arrived far larger that the 400 volt version, so all my careful spacing was messed up, be it the inverter motor control affecting the PLC so has to be moved outside of main box, or new not being same as old, control boxes often need to be altered.

So cable numbers and colours are important.

 

[mattylad]

What I mean about the relay bases, is that a 0.7mm/1.0mm bootlace crimp has a crimp of about 10mm length, the space inside the bases is only about 7mm so you get about 3mm sticking out.
The crimpers I use are the same as these rhino ones.
https://rhinotools.com.au/product/self-adjusting-ferrule-crimper-6mm/

They seem to do the job well.

So whats happening about putting a relay in a box? One of the most simplest items going and we have a 2 page thread on it

 

[bernardgreen]

bootlace crimp has a crimp of about 10mm length,

and can be cut to suit the terminal they are going to be fitted into.

There can be a problem when the crimped ferrule has an oblong profile and the terminal clamps down on the shorter side of the ferrule. Over time the ferrule can twist and become loose in the terminal.

 

[SUNRAY]

Main reason for using bootlace crimps was to hold the cables numbers on the cable, but in the case shown, some one it seems forgot to fit the numbers. I used a rule of thumb over three timers then better to use a PLC, and in the main when I used a PLC I would number to match the PLC terminals.

However I have altered control boxes so often because of some over sight, I very carefully laid out a panel very proud of how neat, but did not have the 24 volt contactors in stock, so spaced with 400 volt version, then the 24 volt version arrived far larger that the 400 volt version, so all my careful spacing was messed up, be it the inverter motor control affecting the PLC so has to be moved outside of main box, or new not being same as old, control boxes often need to be altered.

So cable numbers and colours are important.

If the right sized numbers are used I have found they stay in place, I have always believed the reason for ferrules, whether insulated or not, is to protect the strands of the wire against vibration or damage when reterminating. In my experience I have found people tend to use numbers which are not the correct size because they can't be arsed to use a needle (and therefore a larger size is easier). Then over time and heat from the panel they lose their grip and slip about.

Much of my work has been replacing BMS systems with Trend kit and of course nothing is ever the right size or shape and major surgery is required and often while keeping the system running.

Brand new panels are frequently modified when they get to site to accomodate the changes of site kit after design and errors in design and as you say the excellent build quality in the workshop suddenly disappears.

I've generally tried to keep to controller module/port as a numbering scheme but on big jobs it can get too complex without using symbols such as /- etc. ie module 1 port 14 Vs module 11 port 4 and very soon start getting into 6 numbers.

 

[SUNRAY]

What I mean about the relay bases, is that a 0.7mm/1.0mm bootlace crimp has a crimp of about 10mm length, the space inside the bases is only about 7mm so you get about 3mm sticking out.

Ah yes that, we have had many discussions about this in the past and generally concluded there are 3 reasons that it's best left exposed:
1) Cutting them with cutters distorts and spreads the pin which then needs to be recrimped and there is a likelyhood of damage if the pin doesn't sit straight in the crimper.
2) They end up as different lengths and either shorter than they could be or sit at random positions.
3) The space available for the insulation is limited with many of the smaller bases and the little gap takes the insulator away from the bases obstructions.

The crimpers I use are the same as these rhino ones.
https://rhinotools.com.au/product/self-adjusting-ferrule-crimper-6mm/

They seem to do the job well.

I've never used this style for ferrules and TBH I don't recall any other 'panel builder' either so I can't comment on them for this purpose. I have used them for some other connectors, with dedicated jaws, and I've found them to be fiddly BUT I think that is more likely to be due to the nature of the connector than the crimper.

So whats happening about putting a relay in a box? One of the most simplest items going and we have a 2 page thread on it

Why don't we carress the tradition of the forum and make it 3 pages?

 

[SUNRAY]

and can be cut to suit the terminal they are going to be fitted into.

There can be a problem when the crimped ferrule has an oblong profile and the terminal clamps down on the shorter side of the ferrule. Over time the ferrule can twist and become loose in the terminal.

This sort of thing is a known issue which I've found far too many times while fault finding, particularly with doubles where the insulation has to be in the right orientation to fit the terminal.

IMO it is a part of being a good wireman and making the crimped ferrule the right shape to fit the terminal, either the right crimper (I use 3 different crimpers for wires up to 6mm²) or ensuring the oblong shape is in the correct orientation.

 

[Simon35]

If the right sized numbers are used I have found they stay in place, I have always believed the reason for ferrules, whether insulated or not, is to protect the strands of the wire against vibration or damage when reterminating. In my experience I have found people tend to use numbers which are not the correct size because they can't be arsed to use a needle (and therefore a larger size is easier). Then over time and heat from the panel they lose their grip and slip about.

Much of my work has been replacing BMS systems with Trend kit and of course nothing is ever the right size or shape and major surgery is required and often while keeping the system running.

Brand new panels are frequently modified when they get to site to accomodate the changes of site kit after design and errors in design and as you say the excellent build quality in the workshop suddenly disappears.

I've generally tried to keep to controller module/port as a numbering scheme but on big jobs it can get too complex without using symbols such as /- etc. ie module 1 port 14 Vs module 11 port 4 and very soon start getting into 6 numbers.

I like wire numbers based on drawing sheet number, which is typically used on European, by which I mean German, panels. Easy to find the drawing sheet you want.

 

[SUNRAY]

I like wire numbers based on drawing sheet number, which is typically used on European, by which I mean German, panels. Easy to find the drawing sheet you want.

Yes I do agree, I've even seen them include grid reference which is fantastic but the number get so big it can be hard finding the wire from the drawing.

However ammending drawings becomes difficult if a page expands too much.

 

[mattylad]

I prefer short simple wire numbers.
"+24VDC/2" is not short nor simple - it does not physically fit well lol

As for following the sheet no, its far simpler if there is only 1 sheet

The art is in making the drawing so that it can easily be read, understood and used in practise i.e. by the person wiring the equipment.
A multi page A3 drawing is horrible if you have nowhere to put it and have to keep flicking through different pages to wire something - mistakes can get made because of it.

 

[Simon35]

I prefer short simple wire numbers.
"+24VDC/2" is not short nor simple - it does not physically fit well lol

As for following the sheet no, its far simpler if there is only 1 sheet

The art is in making the drawing so that it can easily be read, understood and used in practise i.e. by the person wiring the equipment.
A multi page A3 drawing is horrible if you have nowhere to put it and have to keep flicking through different pages to wire something - mistakes can get made because of it.

I guess it all depends on the size of control systems you work on. Big installations, big MCC panels, you will have hundreds of drawing sheets. That's where using the sheet number method is best used.

 

[SUNRAY]

I prefer short simple wire numbers.
"+24VDC/2" is not short nor simple - it does not physically fit well lol

I totally agree, I've known up to 11 rings and it is absolute hell looking for '112-2/1173A' especially as it took me ages to realise it turned into '113/1173B', '124/1173C', '132/1173CA' & '133-2/1173D' on subsequent pages... This is from my notes and was on a Siemens installation. Designed and built in Germany, brought over and installed by their own guys. As demonstrated by the '-2' mods had been made making pages exceed their capacity and extra pages inserted.

As for following the sheet no, its far simpler if there is only 1 sheet

The art is in making the drawing so that it can easily be read, understood and used in practise i.e. by the person wiring the equipment.
A multi page A3 drawing is horrible if you have nowhere to put it and have to keep flicking through different pages to wire something - mistakes can get made because of it.

Ever tried getting 1000 devices on one sheet of paper?
Personally I find smaller sheets (A4 seems to be the current preferred size) easier to handle as trying to find somewhere to open a 6ft square drawing in the average plant room is a non starter. A huge advantage of multi page drawings when doing mods is relevant pages can be copied and 'pinned up' during the works, then ammended by hand without making the site copy dirty.
All of this is of course assuming there is a drawing available.

 

[mattylad]

All good but can we put a relay in a box?

 

[SUNRAY]

All good but can we put a relay in a box?

of course we can, as long as the box is 6ft high and 4ft wide with thirty pages of drawings.