Do Leccy's get fed up of ever-changing regulations?

OK we should not be looking at BS7671 as code 4 removed, only look at if dangerous or potentially dangerous, but following BS7671 does make it easier in a way, no debate should it fail on that, we use the BS7671 version that relates to the design date. That is the same as using current BS7671 as the current BS7671 tells you the design date it is valid from.

The design date of an installation has absolutely no relevance at all when carrying out an EICR. Either the installation (or part of it) is safe or unsafe, and compliant or not compliant with the current edition of BS7671, regardless of how old or young it is.

I was not working in the industry when the 15th edition of the regs were in force, nor do I own a copy, so how would I verify if something complied with a previous edition of the regs?
 
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OK we should not be looking at BS7671 as code 4 removed, only look at if dangerous or potentially dangerous, but following BS7671 does make it easier in a way, no debate should it fail on that, we use the BS7671 version that relates to the design date. That is the same as using current BS7671 as the current BS7671 tells you the design date it is valid from.
That's where it seems many would disagree with you.

Yes, the decision is not just related to conformity with (any edition of) BS7671, since it is about whether or not any identified non-conformity is judged (by the inspector) to be 'dangerous' or 'potential dangerous', but I think that most would probably say that the decision as to whether anything was non-conformant (prior to judging whether the non-conformity was 'dangerous' or 'potentially dangerous') had to be based on the edition of BS7671 that was 'current' at the time of the EICR, not at the date (which, anyway, very often wouldn't be known) of the design of the part of the installation in question.

Kind Regards, John
 
Yes it has. It makes the electrical installation safer.
You know what I meant - i.e. "electrically safer". One could, of course, require that everything within a domestic dwelling which was powered by electricity, or which contained 'electrical connections', had to be within a 'non-combustible enclosure', but I envisage that might result in a few problems :) (and it wouldn't necessarily be restricted to LV electricity and/or to 'mains-powered' things, since items with lithium batteries have been known to burst into flames!)
Remember those electrium breakers from about 15 years ago? I could have wired a CU entirely properly, by the book and it would have still gone on fire.
Fair enough, but that's surely very much the exception, rather than the rule? Don't you agree that by far the majority of significant fires which originate in CUs (which, I suspect, is a very rare occurrence in the first place) are due to 'poor connections', rather than faulty devices?
A CU made from combustible material would have been less safe than what is required by today’s regulations. It will at some point undoubtedly save peoples lives. I’d call that progress.
As I've said, it not really as simply as that. I could mirror your statement by writing that metal domestic CUs "will at some point (if it hasn't already happened) undoubtedly cost people's lives" - so one has to consider both sides of the equation before being able to decide whether it is beneficial or detrimental 'progress'.

Kind Regards, John
 
That's where it seems many would disagree with you.

Yes, the decision is not just related to conformity with (any edition of) BS7671, since it is about whether or not any identified non-conformity is judged (by the inspector) to be 'dangerous' or 'potential dangerous', but I think that most would probably say that the decision as to whether anything was non-conformant (prior to judging whether the non-conformity was 'dangerous' or 'potentially dangerous') had to be based on the edition of BS7671 that was 'current' at the time of the EICR, not at the date (which, anyway, very often wouldn't be known) of the design of the part of the installation in question.

Kind Regards, John
I think you are right in that since the inspector does not know the date, and even if he did would likely not have a copy covering that year, hence why code 4 was dropped. I accept I may not have phrased it correctly.
 
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Metal CUs have been around in one form or another for 100 years. Can you find one incident of someone being killed by direct contact with a metal CU or fusebox?

I can find loads of CUs which have gone on fire. It doesn’t matter how or why it happens CUs sometimes go on fire and being made of non combustible material will have a far safer outcome when this does happen.
 
Metal CUs have been around in one form or another for 100 years. Can you find one incident of someone being killed by direct contact with a metal CU or fusebox?
Of course I can't, but that doesn't mean that it has never happened.

In case it's not been clear, I am, by the way, not talking about a metal CU/fusebox which 'becomes live'. Rather, I'm talking about a correctly earthed metal enclosure which remains very close to earth potential even during the 'incident' and which serves as a 'second point of contact' for someone who simultaneously touches something live whilst 'fiddling in a CU'. Ironically, an unearthed metal CU would not pose that particular hazard, although it could/would create others!
I can find loads of CUs which have gone on fire. It doesn’t matter how or why it happens CUs sometimes go on fire and being made of non combustible material will have a far safer outcome when this does happen.
I don't doubt that (although I suspect that many fires originating in even 'combustible' CUs don't result in significant 'house fires'). However, what about the countless other 'combustible' electrical accessories and appliances (some of which involve substantial currents and/or are designed to generate substantial amounts of heat) found in domestic premises?

Kind Regards, John
 
So you’re saying that because other things can go on fire we should just ignore something which we all know definitely does go on fire from time to time?

I’ve personally attended several consumer unit fires of varying severity as have many of my colleagues. I’ve never even anecdotally heard of or read about someone being injured by a metal consumer unit.

Would you rather have a metal or a plastic consumer unit in your own home?
 
So you’re saying that because other things can go on fire we should just ignore something which we all know definitely does go on fire from time to time?
Not as such. What I am saying is ...

... there are countless things (and not all even electrical) which we know "go on fire from time to time". For each of these, we ideally need to consider (a) whether the magnitude of the risk is high enough to warrant consideration of doing anything to reduce it (life is full of very small risks, and we do not, and could not, feel it necessary/appropriate to take action to reduce all of them) ... and (b) if we decide that the risk is great enough to warrant consideration of 'action', then we should decide whether the magnitude of the risk, in comparison with other risks, deserves action about it to be prioritised over action in relation to other risks.

In the case of the CUs, I'm personally not convinced on either count. In terms of (a), I admit that I'm not too sure, since I really know of no statistics about how many house fires originate in plastic CUs. However, as for (b), I would be surprised if there are not much more common causes of house fires than CUs, so would prefer to see those other causes addressed before we even thought about CUs.

I realise that you are confronting me about this because it was me who 'brought it up', but I am sure you are aware that many people (including many electricians) share my scepticism about the 'need' for 'non-combustible' CUs.
Would you rather have a metal or a plastic consumer unit in your own home?
I have several in my house, all plastic, and I'm perfectly happy with that.

I personally don't care whether mine are plastic or metal, since I am confident that I would do nothing in a CU which would present a significant risk to me, even if it were metal. However, if the reg didn't exist and I needed to have CUs replaced (for other reasons), I suspect that I would probably stick with plastic.

Kind Regards, John
 
I have seen many a steel enclosure which has degraded over time and it falling to bits, not seen the same with plastic enclosures, the old Wilex fuse-box-1.jpg has been around for a long time and I don't know of any problems, OK burnt contacts Wylex burnt contacts.jpg where the heavy duty version Wylex heavy duty.jpg has not been used, but it was the use of plastic which was the problem, it was the build quality and the fact type approval was given to sub standard designs. The type approval should have ensured better build quality. The cure would have been to remove the type approval for units which had fire problems, we have not banned washer/driers because one make was going on fire.
 
Aren't people forgetting that the regulation does not state "Thou shalt have a metal CU"?
I don't think people are forgetting it - but, rather, are stuck with metal ones because non-metal ones which would qualify as 'non-combustible' either do not exist or else are not identified as being adequately 'non-combustible' to satisfy the regulation.

Kind Regards, John
 
Not as such. What I am saying is ...

... there are countless things (and not all even electrical) which we know "go on fire from time to time". For each of these, we ideally need to consider (a) whether the magnitude of the risk is high enough to warrant consideration of doing anything to reduce it (life is full of very small risks, and we do not, and could not, feel it necessary/appropriate to take action to reduce all of them) ... and (b) if we decide that the risk is great enough to warrant consideration of 'action', then we should decide whether the magnitude of the risk, in comparison with other risks, deserves action about it to be prioritised over action in relation to other risks.

In the case of the CUs, I'm personally not convinced on either count. In terms of (a), I admit that I'm not too sure, since I really know of no statistics about how many house fires originate in plastic CUs. However, as for (b), I would be surprised if there are not much more common causes of house fires than CUs, so would prefer to see those other causes addressed before we even thought about CUs.

I realise that you are confronting me about this because it was me who 'brought it up', but I am sure you are aware that many people (including many electricians) share my scepticism about the 'need' for 'non-combustible' CUs.
I have several in my house, all plastic, and I'm perfectly happy with that.

I personally don't care whether mine are plastic or metal, since I am confident that I would do nothing in a CU which would present a significant risk to me, even if it were metal. However, if the reg didn't exist and I needed to have CUs replaced (for other reasons), I suspect that I would probably stick with plastic.

Kind Regards, John

I think we will have to agree to disagree. I’m sure your properly installed decent quality branded CU offers little risk in your house just as mine does, but in the real world where I work there are lots of badly manufactured or badly installed CUs and mandating non combustible units at least provides some last line of defence should the worst happen.
 
I think we will have to agree to disagree. I’m sure your properly installed decent quality branded CU offers little risk in your house just as mine does, but in the real world where I work there are lots of badly manufactured or badly installed CUs and mandating non combustible units at least provides some last line of defence should the worst happen.
I'm not sure that 'disagree' is quite the right word. I accept your viewpoint, my main questions relating to whether the (undoubtedly finite, but I suspect extremely small) risk is large enough to warrant wide-ranging action (affecting every domestic installation in the UK) and whether it is reasonable to 'single out' CUs in this context - what about "badly manufactured or badly installed" shower isolators, for example?

You say that you have attended several consumer unit fires. Did most/all of them involve 'poor quality unbranded and badly manufactured' CUs - and, indeed, was it your opinion that the fires started because they were 'poor quality unbranded and badly manufactured' CUs' (rather than because they were 'poorly installed and/or maintained')?

Kind Regards, John
 
Haven't (was it?) Washing machines or Dish Washers caused some fires?

They will be metal cased but likely have a plastic top.
 

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