A tragic case

[blup]

An interesting series of reflections by David Savery on the Romford beer garden manslaughter case:

The avoidable electrocution of Harvey Tyrell - YouTube

Blup

 

[Swwils]

They should really make all outdoor decorative lighting selv.

What kind of explanation is this for this kids family.

How are end users with no knowledge meant to rely on this kind of stuff, especially what gets chucked into new builds.

 

[Adam_151]

I'm not sure SELV is the way to go in all cases, there could be issues with volt drop and where to locate the source locally.

I'd be interested in how folk interpret 714.411.3.3

Lighting in places such as telephone kiosks, bus shelters, advettising panels and town plans shall be provided with additional protection by an RCD having the characteristics specified in Regulation 415.1.1.

If you take it on a word for value, lanterns on walls in pub gardens are none of those things, but if you read into what the intention of it is and decide that its really saying "Fittings in places that are open to the public, located at an accessible height that also may be subject to damage or vandalism" then you'd conclude it did apply, but wouldn't to the high level SONs on the front of the pub (outside of 714) or to the 3m columns in the car park

It appears that the inccident already involved a double fault, something happened, perhaps water ingress that there was a path from live to the metalwork and there was an open earth which would have ensured that exposed parts remained at earth potential (or in the event of a hard fault, did not remain at a dangerous level for more than 0.4). If there was an RCD it would have likely prevented this even before someone got a shock (the surface the lights were fixed to would have probably been earthy enough to trip a 30mA RCD)

 

[mattylad]

All that makes no difference when the guy doing it is doing a cruddy job without thought or conformance to the requirements.

 

[securespark]

I can't believe the guy saying he did quality work but did not pick up on a lack of earthing to the DB.

And where was his MWC for the external lighting he worked on?

I would be ashamed of that and absolutely mortified if anyone came to harm because of a deficiency in my work.

I wonder if he even has any test gear?

 

[333rocky333]

I worked in that pub in the 90's and like most of that pub chain at the time the wiring was fairly rough, and likely then old Crabtree C50 boards, that board shown in the link (not sure its the right board, maybe a press pic, seems too many new colours for a pub even after a refit) seems it was not done by this particular guy,called Db1A so maybe bunched off an older board Db1.
Lots of these newer boards were tagged onto the ends of old pyro sub mains and some of the work we see its no surprise for a poor earth, sometimes its been in years before even noticed.
I went to one pub where the whole accommodation was rewired, so you think somewhere along the line something was tested, it was only when the plumber got a bad shock fitting a shower with the Mcb off, that i got sent there and found the pyro feeding the C50 board had been phase marking wrong leaving the whole install reverse polarity.
Could have been lethal to me too, because the old C50 boards had a lot of Neutral copper exposed with the cover off and like most of us back then, safe isolation was a bit complacent regarding removing covers.

 

[ericmark]

My son and I are both electricians, and when sole trading he would ask me to help, I trusted him and assume no bad jobs, but I never inspected and tested when helping him. He had the insurance so his name had to be on the paperwork, I would be asked run a cable here, connect up this, I never did the whole job, so I can see how two electrics working together how one could be unaware of faults to energised circuits.

 

[mikeey84]

In my experience pub fitters make cowboy kitchen fitters look like skilled craftsmen (no offence meant to any kitchen fitters!)

 

[Gasguru]

Same with gas...any gas installer of quality doesn't go near a pub...the reputation landlords have for ignoring regulations is legendary.
My top tip.. never sit near a pubs gas fire, I guarantee it won't comply with regs and will have had a dodgy safety inspection.

 

[Aragorn84]

Same with gas...any gas installer of quality doesn't go near a pub...the reputation landlords have for ignoring regulations is legendary.

It becomes self-fulfilling at that point though, right?

If decent guys always refuse the work, then the work ends up always being done by cowboys...

 

[Gasguru]

Ultimately the customer pays our wages and if they're not prepared to pay the proper amount for a compliant job then you don't do the job and so the cowboys get the job. The downside of the free market allows undercutting to put others out of business...our government tolerate illegal loss leading from Uber and the like.

It's for the goverment to enforce the legislation and stop the illegal work but at present the regulations in the gas and electrical trades are woeful (so much is open to interpretation and purposely so one could argue to suit the homebuilders/large contractors), the HSE are understaffed and the burden of evidence is onerous so the shambles continues.

I've dealt with the HSE on several occasions...not a single case has ever gone forward to prosecution.

A civil prosecution by the parents might be more effective based on probability of guilt by the parties involved.

 

[JohnW2]

A civil prosecution by the parents might be more effective based on probability of guilt by the parties involved.

True, but using civil proceedings as an alternative to criminal prosecution is (at least in my opinion) a somewhat iffy concept, since it very much weakens the 'innocent until proved guilty' premise which we claim to 'hold dear'!

Kind Regards, John

 

[Gasguru]

As a former jury chairman the legal system's a joke...when the general public have to determine the outcome the guilty are at a distinct advantage.
I might add I was 25 at the time...and none of the other jury members most of whom were considerably older would step up and take responsibility

 

[JohnD]

jury chairman

foreman.

Wearing a tie is usually enough to get the unwanted job.

 

[JohnW2]

As a former jury chairman the legal system's a joke...when the general public have to determine the outcome the guilty are at a distinct advantage. I might add I was 25 at the time...and none of the other jury members most of whom were considerably older would step up and take responsibility

I've served on juries on a couple of occasions, and I have to say that the experience did nothing to instil any confidence in me regarding the jury system.

Whilst I understand the arguments against it, I can't help but think that (the oft-considered) concept of 'professional juries' would probably result in 'justice being served' more often than is currently the case.

However, that wasn't the issue I was mentioning - which was the fact that (no matter who is deciding the 'verdicts') the civil 'burden of proof' considerably reduces the degree of 'certainty' that is required to 'prove guilt' (when civil proceedings are being used in place of criminal ones).

Kind Regards, John