1. Visiting from the US? Why not try DIYnot.US instead? Click here to continue to DIYnot.US.
    Dismiss Notice

A tragic case

Discussion in 'Electrics UK' started by blup, 8 Mar 2021.

  1. blup

    blup

    Joined:
    5 Nov 2007
    Messages:
    1,573
    Thanks Received:
    271
    Country:
    United Kingdom
  2. Sponsored Links
  3. Swwils

    Swwils

    Joined:
    2 Jul 2020
    Messages:
    436
    Thanks Received:
    85
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    They should really make all outdoor decorative lighting selv.

    What kind of explanation is this for this kids family.

    How are end users with no knowledge meant to rely on this kind of stuff, especially what gets chucked into new builds.
     
  4. Adam_151

    Adam_151

    Joined:
    17 Jun 2004
    Messages:
    6,665
    Thanks Received:
    272
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I'm not sure SELV is the way to go in all cases, there could be issues with volt drop and where to locate the source locally.

    I'd be interested in how folk interpret 714.411.3.3
    If you take it on a word for value, lanterns on walls in pub gardens are none of those things, but if you read into what the intention of it is and decide that its really saying "Fittings in places that are open to the public, located at an accessible height that also may be subject to damage or vandalism" then you'd conclude it did apply, but wouldn't to the high level SONs on the front of the pub (outside of 714) or to the 3m columns in the car park

    It appears that the inccident already involved a double fault, something happened, perhaps water ingress that there was a path from live to the metalwork and there was an open earth which would have ensured that exposed parts remained at earth potential (or in the event of a hard fault, did not remain at a dangerous level for more than 0.4). If there was an RCD it would have likely prevented this even before someone got a shock (the surface the lights were fixed to would have probably been earthy enough to trip a 30mA RCD)
     
  5. mattylad

    mattylad

    Joined:
    27 Apr 2008
    Messages:
    7,955
    Thanks Received:
    591
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    All that makes no difference when the guy doing it is doing a cruddy job without thought or conformance to the requirements.
     
  6. securespark

    securespark

    Joined:
    11 Jan 2004
    Messages:
    36,525
    Thanks Received:
    1,237
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I can't believe the guy saying he did quality work but did not pick up on a lack of earthing to the DB.

    And where was his MWC for the external lighting he worked on?

    I would be ashamed of that and absolutely mortified if anyone came to harm because of a deficiency in my work.

    I wonder if he even has any test gear?
     
  7. 333rocky333

    333rocky333

    Joined:
    12 Jan 2008
    Messages:
    8,269
    Thanks Received:
    873
    Location:
    Essex
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I worked in that pub in the 90's and like most of that pub chain at the time the wiring was fairly rough, and likely then old Crabtree C50 boards, that board shown in the link (not sure its the right board, maybe a press pic, seems too many new colours for a pub even after a refit) seems it was not done by this particular guy,called Db1A so maybe bunched off an older board Db1.
    Lots of these newer boards were tagged onto the ends of old pyro sub mains and some of the work we see its no surprise for a poor earth, sometimes its been in years before even noticed.
    I went to one pub where the whole accommodation was rewired, so you think somewhere along the line something was tested, it was only when the plumber got a bad shock fitting a shower with the Mcb off, that i got sent there and found the pyro feeding the C50 board had been phase marking wrong leaving the whole install reverse polarity.
    Could have been lethal to me too, because the old C50 boards had a lot of Neutral copper exposed with the cover off and like most of us back then, safe isolation was a bit complacent regarding removing covers.
     
    Last edited: 8 Mar 2021
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  8. ericmark

    ericmark

    Joined:
    27 Jan 2008
    Messages:
    17,885
    Thanks Received:
    1,666
    Location:
    Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    My son and I are both electricians, and when sole trading he would ask me to help, I trusted him and assume no bad jobs, but I never inspected and tested when helping him. He had the insurance so his name had to be on the paperwork, I would be asked run a cable here, connect up this, I never did the whole job, so I can see how two electrics working together how one could be unaware of faults to energised circuits.
     
  9. mikeey84

    mikeey84

    Joined:
    7 Jan 2011
    Messages:
    1,120
    Thanks Received:
    127
    Location:
    Warwickshire
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    In my experience pub fitters make cowboy kitchen fitters look like skilled craftsmen (no offence meant to any kitchen fitters!)
     
  10. Sponsored Links
  11. Gasguru

    Gasguru

    Joined:
    9 Sep 2005
    Messages:
    12,120
    Thanks Received:
    3,195
    Location:
    Sussex
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Same with gas...any gas installer of quality doesn't go near a pub...the reputation landlords have for ignoring regulations is legendary.
    My top tip.. never sit near a pubs gas fire, I guarantee it won't comply with regs and will have had a dodgy safety inspection.
     
  12. Aragorn84

    Aragorn84

    Joined:
    3 Sep 2008
    Messages:
    1,069
    Thanks Received:
    116
    Location:
    West Lothian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    It becomes self-fulfilling at that point though, right?

    If decent guys always refuse the work, then the work ends up always being done by cowboys...
     
  13. Gasguru

    Gasguru

    Joined:
    9 Sep 2005
    Messages:
    12,120
    Thanks Received:
    3,195
    Location:
    Sussex
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Ultimately the customer pays our wages and if they're not prepared to pay the proper amount for a compliant job then you don't do the job and so the cowboys get the job. The downside of the free market allows undercutting to put others out of business...our government tolerate illegal loss leading from Uber and the like.

    It's for the goverment to enforce the legislation and stop the illegal work but at present the regulations in the gas and electrical trades are woeful (so much is open to interpretation and purposely so one could argue to suit the homebuilders/large contractors), the HSE are understaffed and the burden of evidence is onerous so the shambles continues.

    I've dealt with the HSE on several occasions...not a single case has ever gone forward to prosecution.

    A civil prosecution by the parents might be more effective based on probability of guilt by the parties involved.
     
  14. JohnW2

    JohnW2

    Joined:
    28 Jan 2011
    Messages:
    47,637
    Thanks Received:
    3,100
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    True, but using civil proceedings as an alternative to criminal prosecution is (at least in my opinion) a somewhat iffy concept, since it very much weakens the 'innocent until proved guilty' premise which we claim to 'hold dear'!

    Kind Regards, John
     
  15. Gasguru

    Gasguru

    Joined:
    9 Sep 2005
    Messages:
    12,120
    Thanks Received:
    3,195
    Location:
    Sussex
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    As a former jury chairman the legal system's a joke...when the general public have to determine the outcome the guilty are at a distinct advantage.
    I might add I was 25 at the time...and none of the other jury members most of whom were considerably older would step up and take responsibility :rolleyes:
     
  16. JohnD

    JohnD

    Joined:
    15 Nov 2005
    Messages:
    71,876
    Thanks Received:
    4,092
    Location:
    Crossgates
    Country:
    Cook Islands
    foreman.

    Wearing a tie is usually enough to get the unwanted job.
     
  17. JohnW2

    JohnW2

    Joined:
    28 Jan 2011
    Messages:
    47,637
    Thanks Received:
    3,100
    Location:
    Buckinghamshire
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    I've served on juries on a couple of occasions, and I have to say that the experience did nothing to instil any confidence in me regarding the jury system.

    Whilst I understand the arguments against it, I can't help but think that (the oft-considered) concept of 'professional juries' would probably result in 'justice being served' more often than is currently the case.

    However, that wasn't the issue I was mentioning - which was the fact that (no matter who is deciding the 'verdicts') the civil 'burden of proof' considerably reduces the degree of 'certainty' that is required to 'prove guilt' (when civil proceedings are being used in place of criminal ones).

    Kind Regards, John
     
Loading...

Share This Page