Covid-19 Gambles

However, we just need to be a little patient, since it will presumably only be a couple of weeks or so before we know the effect of further relaxations (without the identity of the variant changing).
...but then there will likely be something else; if not then, no bother.
Do not worry, it appears everyone will soon be isolating having been 'pinged'.

Of one thing we can be sure. As I've been saying to echoes, one does not need data, mathematics or any knowledge of rocket science to know that if one relaxes restrictions on inter-personal contact/proximity, then the transmission of any variant of any virus will increase. So what we are waiting to discover is 'how much increase', not whether there will be an increase.
...but how much restriction has there been lately on inter-personal contact/proximity?

So, it all boils down to whether masks are effective. As I said in the beginning of the thread, people's usage of the bits of cloth negates most of any protection. Obviously they stop people spitting big drops on you but other than that the breath and aerosols just escape around the edges (even heard one radio presenter complain that he didn't like wearing masks because his glasses steamed up - d'oh) plus the constant putting on and taking off, endless adjustment, (watch Steve Jones on Channel 4's coverage of the Formula 1) screwing up and keeping in pocket is not going to achieve anything.
Once I even saw a young chap exit a shop carrying two presumably fairly weighty bags. He reached up holding one of the bags, took off his mask and carried it to the car in his mouth.

Back to the maths:
Looking at yesterdays numbers, there were 1,177,716 tests and 51,870 positive - 4.4%. Is this in the realm of false positives being significant? 717 were admitted to hospital yesterday - I can't find total number in hospital.
I know it is down to the numbers of staff but there are 160,000 hospital beds in the UK (used to be 240,000).

Is this selective testing or just random? If random, presumably it means that had they tested everyone there would be 52,000 x 60 - 3,120,000 - in the country who are positive but , as usual, there is no indication of how many are ill. Then what? Test them all again tomorrow or in a few days?

On another tack; do you think Ferguson has save ~400,000 lives; he forecast 500,000 deaths; or was he wrong - again?
 
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On another tack; do you think Ferguson has save ~400,000 lives; he forecast 500,000 deaths; or was he wrong - again

The bashing of Ferguson is usually based on unhelpful headlines and soundbites, without the context.

His team predicted that

" if no measures were put in place, deaths over the next two years could reach more than 500,000. This was not a prediction of how many people would die from coronavirus in the UK"

Similarly the reported figures for vCJD, H1N1 etc are usually either worst case figures or soundbites taken out of context

Not saying he is always right, but no modeller will try and claim they will get it right, and will always point to error bars on graphs
 
His team predicted that
" if no measures were put in place, deaths over the next two years could reach more than 500,000. This was not a prediction of how many people would die from coronavirus in the UK"
If you say so. Projection; prediction again.
Has any country of similar population had such figures? How is poor old India doing?

Similarly the reported figures for vCJD, H1N1 etc are usually either worst case figures or soundbites taken out of context
...but if that did not happen, then what did happen?

Not saying he is always right, but no modeller will try and claim they will get it right, and will always point to error bars on graphs
There you go.
 
If you say so. Projection; prediction again.
Has any country of similar population had such figures? How is poor old India doing?

India that has at least tried to put in measures?

We will never know how many would have died if the government did nothing. Damn site more I reckon

Do you think all the bodies floating down the Ganges made it into the official number of covid deaths?

but if that did not happen, then what did happen

I don't understand your question? His team predicted between 50 and 50k deaths from vCJD, which is correct (300ish I think so far)

Unfortunately the media tend to grab a big number and put it on the front page, without the explanation as to what the number means
 
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Projection; prediction again.

It's what modellers do, it's their job. How many do you think could have died over two years if no measures were implemented at all, using a worst case scenario?
 
We will never know if his team were right or not. The general consensus is that the collapse of the NHS would have caused a lot more non-covid deaths, and likely a lot more covid deaths- I'm sure the survival in a nightingale hospital wouldn't have been as good as a "normal" hospital

The fact we came so close to it happening shows that, if he did spur the government into action, it was a good thing.
 
...but then there will likely be something else; if not then, no bother.
I doubt whether there will be a 'something else' appearing within the next 2-3 weeks. Even if a new, and even more transmissible variant than that, were to appear tomorrow, it would take longer than that for its effects to show appreciably in the numbers. Hence, the only thing likely to change in the next couple of weeks is Monday's relaxations, so if there is any change (in either direction) in the numbers by then, by far the most explanation will be the 'relaxations'.
...but how much restriction has there been lately on inter-personal contact/proximity?
a fair bit - but if you think there's little restriction at the moment, then there wouldn't be much to 'relax' on Monday, so nothing much for anyone to 'fear.
So, it all boils down to whether masks are effective. ...
Not really. I think that most people are agreed that masks are, at best, only a small part of the total package (which is why the lengthy diversion onto masks in this thread was somewhat of a 'waste of time').

The main, and most important, relaxations on Monday will be the ability to meet indoors in unlimited numbers and without social distancing. That will be a direct change in "restriction on inter-personal contact/proximity".
Back to the maths: Looking at yesterdays numbers, there were 1,177,716 tests and 51,870 positive - 4.4%. Is this in the realm of false positives being significant?
Not really. Just a small proportion of that 4.4% of positive will be false positives (and that will be at least partially cancelled by false negatives). In any event, the rate of false positives and negatives will remain fairly constant over time, so will not affect changes in the figures, which is what we are looking at.
717 were admitted to hospital yesterday - I can't find total number in hospital.
3,964 today - I'll show you the graphs later.
I know it is down to the numbers of staff but there are 160,000 hospital beds in the UK (used to be 240,000).
We need all of those 160,000 (or whatever) beds (and more, and the staff to service them) in relation to our desperate attempts to do something about the 12 million or whatever people on waiting lists, to address the delayed diagnosis and treatment of those with cancer and any other number of other serious illnesses (including mental health disorders). If we get up to anywhere near (let alone above) the January figures of people needing beds for Covid, that will have taken a substantial bite out of the beds (and staff) available for those other urgent uses.

In any event, the greatest problem is in relation to ICU beds, since about one-third of patients admitted to hospital with Covid end up in ICU. We have very limited numbers of ICU beds (and, most important, specialist-trained staff to service them) and ICU ('ventilator bed') occupancy is already up to about 15% of the January peak. Filling what ICU beds we have (and can staff) with Covid patients precludes the undertaking most major surgery (for cancer or anything else).
On another tack; do you think Ferguson has save ~400,000 lives; he forecast 500,000 deaths; or was he wrong - again?
That depends what alternative scenarios you're talking about. If you are thinking of a situation in which we had 'done' absolutely nothing, then one can easily undertake a rough calculation 'on a fag packet' ... the virus would have done it's thing until 'herd immunity' was achieved, say when about 80% (about 53 million) people had been infected. In terms of what we were seeing back then, we could probably have expected about 1% of those infected people to die - so, say, about 530,000 deaths. For those who 'like' that sort of strategy, it would all have been largely 'over' fairly quickly, but 53 million infections would (unless we had taken 'Draconian' decisions) certainly have brought the NHS to a 'halt', so goodness knows how many additional people would have died of other things - during the pandemic or in the following years.

Kind Regards, John
 
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The fact we came so close to it happening shows that, if he did spur the government into action, it was a good thing.
Indeed, I think that often goes forgotten.

There is plenty of scope for criticising Fergusson's group for their 'melodramatic' forecasts (and not for the first time - they got a lot of retrospective criticism/flack over the foot and mouth outbreak in 2001). However, I really don't think the government were taking things seriously enough back then, and probably would waited quite a lot longer before 'acting' had his group not frightened them into action!

Anyway, as I just wrote to EFLI, one only needs to have a 'fag packet' to see that, if we had done absolutely nothing, we could probably have expected a total of around half a million deaths, in a relative short period of time.

Kind Regards, John
 
How is poor old India doing?
If one can believe the figures (which I can but presume must be far from accurate, probably considerable underestimates, given the nature and size of the country), India is amazing ... and I really don't understand (the hiccup in the deaths curve {second one below} is something that has happened in many countries - when they suddenly 'found' a lot of deaths that previously hadn't been counted) ...

upload_2021-7-16_19-6-23.png


upload_2021-7-16_19-8-37.png


Kind Regards, John
 
Yes I am. You'll see exactly the same curve in Sweden, which did not lockdown. It's just what happens.
Since you've done a good deal of analysis, you will have noticed that the infection rate in March 2020 had already peaked before lockdown.
Over simplification.

lockdown is not a binary term.

lockdown is the term now adopted to describe a collection of non pharmaceutical interventions.

Sweden didn’t initially have a government, rules based “lockdown”, but it has a society of consensus….one countries “advice” is another ones “rules”

Sweden is the country routinely trotted out by anti lockdowners.
 
u will have noticed that the infection rate in March 2020 had already peaked before lockdown

This is a common argument, often used by lockdown sceptics.

it’s built on oversimplification.

Let’s take the dates: official lockdown started March 23

however, millions of vulnerable people took advice and started to shield from 2 weeks earlier. Secondly care homes and hospitals closed their doors well before Mar 23


Whilst I agree Covid comes in waves and infection rates will come down anyway, that does not mean NPIs have no value…..and without NPIs I would argue decline after the peak would be slower and the number of long Covid sufferers is likely to be greater.
 

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