Supporting Ukraine

I am constantly amazed at how many Putin-apologists there are out there in the west.
In the UK at least there are a certain percentage of the electorate who just can't come to terms that they have been totally manipulated...

They'd rather one of their puppet masters to triumph than care about the devastation he has unleashed and have to admit their massive mistake!
 
It gave its neighbours their independence on the understanding that they wouldn't allow their countries to become militerised.
These countries were not liberated by the west.
That's not how sovereignty works. Nor was it Russias choice.
 
It gave its neighbours their independence on the understanding that they wouldn't allow their countries to become militerised.
These countries were not liberated by the west.
The command economy of the Soviet Union disintegrated in the late 1980s to early 1990s. The one thing that burst the bubble was Chernobyl, which even the Russians eventually couldn't hide. When the Warsaw Pact fell apart many of its' former members wanted two things desparately - membership of NATO, to protect themselves from Russian occupation in the future, and membership of the EU so that their economies could grow. The "understanding" you talk about never existed. Had you met East Germans or Poles in the 1980s - and by that I mean ordinary people, as opposed to Communist Party apparatchiks - you would most certainly have understood that many were unhappy with the yoke of Soviet Russia which was placed on their shoulders. Free speech, even free thought back at home was impossible.

If things were so good in the east, why was it that so many people risked their lives to defect to the west? For example well over 100,000 citizens of the GDR (East Germany) tried to escape across the inner-German border or the Berlin Wall between 1961 and 1988. More than 600 of them were shot and killed by GDR border guards or died in other ways during their escape attempt.

Does that sound like people who wanted to stay in the Soviet Russian-dominated east?
 
Had you met East Germans or Poles in the 1980s - and by that I mean ordinary people, as opposed to Communist Party apparatchiks - you would most certainly have understood that many were unhappy with the yoke of Soviet Russia which was placed on their shoulders. Free speech, even free thought back at home was impossible.

Based on my experience of 10 weeks in East Germany 1967 I can only agree with that statement.
 
Because of the expansionist policy of the EU and NATO.
The EU is throwing petrol on the fire by supplying weapons to Ukrainians to kill each other.
Wrong. It is Ukrainians defending themselves from the Russian military. Don't you watch the news? FFS even Al-Jezeerah, who are hardly pro-West, are carrying the same stories

Historically Russia has always been a reliable supplier of oil and gas to Europe, even at the height of the cold war the supply of gas was uninterrupted.
Historically? The gas pipeline to Germany only started operation in about 1985, getting to full capacity in about 1989/1990. I can well recall the heated arguments in Germany over the pros and cons of taking Russian gas at the time the plan was first mooted (c.1980), and especially the potential future use of gas as a weapon against Germany and other NATO countries. America in particular warned Germany of the potential future scenario, some of which we are now seeing played out. "Reliable supplier of gas at the height of the cold war"? The period of gas supply from the Soviet Union was in fact only from about 1985 to 1991, which coincided with the collapse of the Soviet Union's economy, and in part with Gorbachev's premiership (1988 to 1991) as well as their desperate need for hard currency to prop their failing economy at the time. That leaves a very small window, not some decades long period as you seem to imply

It is the EU who is weaponising the question of Russian gas into Europe.
Again, not the case. Putin has used gas revenues to rebuild his military since about 2001 with about 4.3% of Russian GDP currently going into defence. In comparison the figure for almost all NATO and EU nations is less than 2%. If you are going to make such bold statements, you need to back them up with some figures
 
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In the UK at least there are a certain percentage of the electorate who just can't come to terms that they have been totally manipulated...

They'd rather one of their puppet masters to triumph than care about the devastation he has unleashed and have to admit their massive mistake!
I hope you are not referring to Brexit again.
 
Your arguments are all pro Putin.

why is that?
I am not pro Putin nor anti Putin.
Although i do like to play devils advocate sometimes.
What i do admit is that i am anti EU.
I believe that the EU by its policy of expanding into eastern Europe is the cause of the conflict in Ukraine.
The problem with the EU is that a lot of EU politicians have never forgiven the Russians for defeating Hitler.
 
I would concede that Putin has a point with nato forces right on his actual border ?

let’s face it if Canada ( for example ) had Russian based on there border with the US

I doubt the yanks would be amused

after all they almost started world war 3 over missiles in Cuba 90 miles from there border

how ever all of this alters nothing in the here and now

we are where we are
 
Russia has been suppling oil to Europe from 1964 through the Druzhba pipeline i believe.
I wad specifically referring to gas. The key fuel in all this is gas, not oil. Go back and look through some of the German newspapers of the early 1980s to see the significance if you do not understand it
 
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See link below for source and full article

Quote==========
Ukrainian peace negotiator is shot dead ahead of latest round of talks to end war - amid claims he was a Russian spy
  • Ukraine's Defence Ministry said Denis Kireev, 45, killed during defence operation
  • The government called him a hero but MPs claim he was suspected of 'treason'
  • They said he was shot and killed by Ukraine security service as he resisted arrest
  • Mr Kireev was pictured on Ukraine side during negotiations with the Russians
  • He was not on the official list for the February 28 summit and his role is unclear

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...tiator-shot-dead-amid-claims-Russian-spy.html


As I've said to the trolls a million times in times of war/conflict and before and after that, waters get very muddy and ALL sides tell lies/misinformation along with genuine misunderstandings

https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/...e-its-not-russia.586127/page-83#ixzz7MlfhZcHk
 
translated from https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten...schiesst-unterhaendler-wegen-hochverrats.html

Ukraine's internal intelligence service has shot dead a negotiator during an arrest. The accusation: high treason. But another secret service is now publishing conflicting information.
A lot is still unclear: a member of the Ukrainian negotiating delegation was shot dead by the Ukrainian domestic secret service while attempting to arrest him. This is reported by the Ukrainian news portal "Ukrainiska Pravda", citing government circles. Accordingly, Denis Kireev was suspected of high treason. However, another Ukrainian intelligence agency, the GUR military intelligence agency, shortly afterwards released a message claiming that the killed Kireev was working for him.
Kireev was also part of the negotiating delegation that met with representatives of the Russian side in Gomel, Belarus on Monday. He can be seen at the back of the table in one of the official pictures.

Worth reading the whole report
 
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