Suella Braverman

[Pat ex]

No, what you're doing is talking *******s, making false claims, lying through your teeth that no facilities exist for a visa application in certain African countries, when in fact the opposite applies.

You've been caught out again, now jog on.

Please do search for the UK Visa Application centre in Djibouti, Eritrea, etc, just to prove your argument is not trolling.
Please post the towns or cities in which they're located here to prove your outrageous allegations.

Just looked, of East African countries, Comoros, Djibouti, Eritrea, Somalia and Somaliland do not have UK visa application centres.

And when you can't find out where the application centres are in those countries, with all the internet power at your fingertips, imagine what it's like in those East African countries for a virtually orphaned under 18 years old.

And you will of course apologise for your outrageous allegations and insults when you can't substantiate your allegations, won't you?

But because you're trolling, I won't be holding my breath.
And your lack of an apology will prove that you're the troll.

 

[fillyboy]

Please do search for the UK Visa Application centre in Djibouti, Eritrea, etc, just to prove your argument is not trolling.
Please post the towns or cities in which they're located here to prove your outrageous allegations.

And when you can't find out where the application centres are in those countries, with all the internet power at your fingertips, imagine what it's like in those East African countries for a virtually orphaned under 18 years old.

And you will of course apologise for your outrageous allegations and insults when you can't substantiate your allegations, won't you?

But because you're trolling, I won't be holding my breath.
And your lack of an apology will prove that you're the troll.

Djibouti is online application, the others are apply at the British Consulate in the capital cities, a 60 second google revealed that, I'm not going to search for the links and post the addresses of the British Consulates just to satisfy a lying troll like you, search for them yourself.

In the meantime, stop being a liar, it's not a good look and weakens your argument, wipes it out in fact.

 

[Pat ex]

Djibouti is online application, the others are apply at the British Consulate in the capital cities, a 60 second google revealed that, I'm not going to search for the links and post the addresses of the British Consulates just to satisfy a lying troll like you, search for them yourself.

In the meantime, stop being a liar, it's not a good look and weakens your argument, wipes it out in fact.

Not all embassies or consulates offer consular services.
Your blatant refusal to even attempt to prove your claims proves several things:
1. You blatantly made your allegations without checking the veracity of those allegations,
2. You now can't prove your assertions, and refuse to accept your allegations and insults were blatant troll attempts, and
3. You don't have the decency nor the integrity to admit your blatant false and defamatory allegations.

The links that I provided show that an attendance at a UK Visa Application centre was obligatory, and cannot be achieved entirely on line.

 

[Pat ex]

(Abuse removed)

Not all consular offices, nor embassies offer consular services.
Now where's that address for the UK Visa Application centres in those east African countries I mentioned.
Instead of resorting to your usual insults, spend a little time in finding the Visa Application centres, just like a virtually orphaned under 18 year old would be required to do.

 

[Pat ex]

Consular services to business, foster political alliances, assisting expats, issuing visitor visas, (note! we are not discussing visitor visas), registering marriages, providing outdated, lost or stolen passports, housing the Ambassador, assisting with remote voting in elections, assisting in adoption procedures, travel advice, provide emergency service during times of upheaval and conflict, etc.

Now where's that apology?

 

[fillyboy]

Consular services to business, foster political alliances, assisting expats, issuing visitor visas, (note! we are not discussing visitor visas), registering marriages, providing outdated, lost or stolen passports, housing the Ambassador, assisting with remote voting in elections, assisting in adoption procedures, travel advice, provide emergency service during times of upheaval and conflict, etc.

Now where's that apology?

UK tourist visa for Somali citizens in May 2023

Somali citizens must obtain a visa before travelling to UK. UK tourist visa is required for Somali citizens. The stay is usually short with a period of 180 days and visa expires in 180 days. Applicant is required to be present when applying for UK tourist visa. A total of 9 documents are...

visalist.io

Step 1 : Somali citizens need to get a visa for UK by going to the nearest embassy. 2 Step 2 : Fill the application form for UK. 3 Step 3 : After filling, providing the required documents with your passport and make the payment and submit visa application at the embassy of UK 4 Step 4 : Once the visa application for UK is approved, you will be notified by e-mail. 5 Step 5 : Pickup your passport from UK embassy 6 Step 6 : You can now travel to UK and stay for the duration on your visa. (Source: https://visalist.io/united-kingdom/visa-requirements/somalia )

Look, you've been caught out as a lying troll.

"Just looked, of East African countries, Comoros, Djibouti, Eritrea, Somalia and Somaliland do not have UK visa application centres."

Now really, you have serious issues and need help, you're wrong, you've been proved wrong, just do one.

 

[Odds]

Minor breaches of immigration procedures can be ignored in the case of refugees claiming, or intending to claim asylum. The recent judgement made it obvious that a refugee intending to claim asylum can be excused minor immigration procedures, even if they intend to claim asylum in a different country.

But that isn't what B.man was saying. Her point was an illegal immigrant would have their status changed to an asylum seeker/migrant by applying for the form and changing their legal status in the UK. More sophistry.

 

[motorbiking]

Two points
If they have British citizenship, then the normal immigration rules apply.

In addition if you were granted asylum before 2005, then normal immigration rules apply

Refugee family reunion: a user’s guide – Free Movement

freemovement.org.uk

If they apply under the Family Reunion Scheme, and obviously their children or partner is outside the UK the process is arduous, difficult and dangerous.
The child (who is under 18) must have biometric information taken, they must visit a visa application centre (which will hardly likely to be in the area of upheaval or conflict) and that travel to the visa application centre might be in a different country or region.
So the chances of an under 18 year old child managing to do that is highly unlikely.

Refugee family reunion: a user’s guide – Free Movement

freemovement.org.uk

Yes British Citizens have to meet the means test. A British citizen is obviously not an Asylum seeker. An Asylum seeker who wanted to follow this process, can't like his family very much if he stays in the UK for 5 years after being granted leave, applies and is granted citizenship before inviting his wife to join him. This with a backdrop of being able to fast track the process using his refugee status, in significantly less than half the time.

You describe an arduous process, can you show an example of a country that does not take steps to secure and prove the identity of a person applying to become a citizen?

Now really, you have serious issues and need help, you're wrong, you've been proved wrong, just do one.

Pat doesn't apologise when he's wrong, it would be a full time job for him. He prefers to keep changing his argument until eventually, some of it fits somewhere.

Here is another example - he keeps posting this.. I've provided links to the legislation, two pieces of case law and the CPS charging standard. But he keeps saying this:

Minor breaches of immigration procedures can be ignored in the case of refugees claiming, or intending to claim asylum. The recent judgement made it obvious that a refugee intending to claim asylum can be excused minor immigration procedures, even if they intend to claim asylum in a different country.

Section 31 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 (already provided link) provides a statutory defence for refugees committing particular offences, providing they satisfy stated conditions.

The applicable offences under section 31(3) are:

• Part 1 of the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 (forgery and connected offences)
• Section 24A of the Immigration Act 1971 (use of deception to obtain or seek to obtain leave to enter or remain or to secure avoidance, postponement or revocation of enforcement action)
• Section 26(1)(d) of the Immigration 1971 Act (falsification of documents)
• Sections 4(1) and 6(1) of the Identity Documents Act 2010

The conditions that must be satisfied for the defence to apply are set out at section 31(1) and (2).

Under section 31(5) a refugee is not entitled to this defence in relation to any offence committed after making a claim for asylum. You claim or you don't claim, there is no "intending to claim". Consequently, a defendant who enters the country either clandestinely or legally, claims asylum, and then obtains false documents for use in attempting to travel to another country, would be outside the scope of section 31. This quite clearly impacts an Asylum seeker, intercepted in Italy or France on route to the UK.

 

[Pat ex]

UK tourist visa for Somali citizens in May 2023

Somali citizens must obtain a visa before travelling to UK. UK tourist visa is required for Somali citizens. The stay is usually short with a period of 180 days and visa expires in 180 days. Applicant is required to be present when applying for UK tourist visa. A total of 9 documents are...

visalist.io

Step 1 : Somali citizens need to get a visa for UK by going to the nearest embassy. 2 Step 2 : Fill the application form for UK. 3 Step 3 : After filling, providing the required documents with your passport and make the payment and submit visa application at the embassy of UK 4 Step 4 : Once the visa application for UK is approved, you will be notified by e-mail. 5 Step 5 : Pickup your passport from UK embassy 6 Step 6 : You can now travel to UK and stay for the duration on your visa. (Source: https://visalist.io/united-kingdom/visa-requirements/somalia )

Look, you've been caught out as a lying troll.

"Just looked, of East African countries, Comoros, Djibouti, Eritrea, Somalia and Somaliland do not have UK visa application centres."

Now really, you have serious issues and need help, you're wrong, you've been proved wrong, just do one.

UK tourist visa from Somalia (Source: https://visalist.io/united-kingdom/visa-requirements/somalia )

We're not discussing Tourist Visas, we're discussing Family Reunion applications.
See posts numbers: 58,60,69,70,72,77 which make it obvious what sort of application we were discussing.

Now if you have no idea what the current discussion is about, you have no business entering the discussion.

Just for your education, allow me to point out the very obvious difference between a tourist visa and a family reunion application:
For a tourist visa the applicant will already hold a valid passport, which if applicable will already hold the required biometric data. They may already be familiar with the process. There is no need for them to provide any other ID, nor prove any relationship to an asylum seekers in UK.

For a Family Reunion application, which will be a once in a lifetime occasion, the applicant may not hold a passport, will be required to prove their ID, and their relationship to the asylum seeker in the UK. There may be other paperwork required in addition to obtaining biometric data. There will undoubtedly be an interview required and a translator may be required, which the applicant will have to arrange and pay for. It's highly probable that more than one visit will be required.

Now where's that apology?

 

[Pat ex]

But that isn't what B.man was saying. Her point was an illegal immigrant would have their status changed to an asylum seeker/migrant by applying for the form and changing their legal status in the UK. More sophistry.

Yes, but the term illegal immigrant is a form of wordplay by right wing anti-immigration advocates.
Asylum seekers could be classed as illegal immigrants for the time it takes them to apply for asylum, or to transit through the country in order to claim asylum. But as the recent judgment made clear, minor breaches of immigration law should be excused for asylum seekers or potential asylum seekers, even if they intend to apply for asylum in another country.

It's like someone taking their pregnant wife, sick or injured child to hospital, should they be expected to observe the speed limits, parking restrictions, etc?
Strictly speaking they are breaking the laws, but it's excusable under the circumstances.

 

[Odds]

If you're using backdoor channels to enter any country then you're doing so illegally, regardless of political advocacy. More sophistry.

 

[motorbiking]

Yes, but the term illegal immigrant is a form of wordplay by right wing anti-immigration advocates.
Asylum seekers could be classed as illegal immigrants for the time it takes them to apply for asylum, or to transit through the country in order to claim asylum. But as the recent judgment made clear, minor breaches of immigration law should be excused for asylum seekers or potential asylum seekers, even if they intend to apply for asylum in another country.

It's like someone taking their pregnant wife, sick or injured child to hospital, should they be expected to observe the speed limits, parking restrictions, etc?
Strictly speaking they are breaking the laws, but it's excusable under the circumstances.

Not founded in any law however:
An illegal immigrant is someone who has entered a country without the right to do so (citizenship, visa etc).
A refugee/Asylum seeker is someone who has presented themselves to the authority and claimed this right or providing sufficient information for it to be clear that they meet the requirements.
Potential asylum seekers are not excused from "minor breaches of immigration law" or any subsequent breaches of immigration law, once they have claimed asylum.
A person breaking the speed limit to get someone to hospital - pleads his case to the magistrate who may at his discretion find the person guilty, but give them an absolute discharge.

 

[Pat ex]

Yes British Citizens have to meet the means test. A British citizen is obviously not an Asylum seeker. An Asylum seeker who wanted to follow this process, can't like his family very much if he stays in the UK for 5 years after being granted leave, applies and is granted citizenship before inviting his wife to join him. This with a backdrop of being able to fast track the process using his refugee status, in significantly less than half the time.

It's currently taking up to 3 years to process asylum seeker. There's no mention of any fast tracking for specific asylum seekers under the Family Reunion scheme. It can apply for extending the stay, or for applicants already in UK, but not for those outside the UK.
It's easily understandable that an asylum seekers only manages to regain contact with their partner or child after 5 years.

You describe an arduous process, can you show an example of a country that does not take steps to secure and prove the identity of a person applying to become a citizen?

I'm referring to an arduous process of a child, perhaps a virtually orphaned under 18 year old in war torn region, that has no easy access to a UK Visa Application centre, proving his or her ID, age, accessing a centre, providing biometric data, and proving their relationship to the asylum seeker already in UK.
For instance, (let's stay with Djibouti for now) an applicant going to a UK Visa Application centre from Djibouti to Addis Ababa (probably the nearest) would have a round trip of about 2,000 kilometres. Or they could try their hand at crossing the Red Sea to Yemen.. If they went via the normal route to Yemen (Sanaa) it would require a round trip of over 10,000 kilometres.

Pat doesn't apologise when he's wrong, it would be a full time job for him. He prefers to keep changing his argument until eventually, some of it fits somewhere.
Here is another example - he keeps posting this.. I've provided links to the legislation, two pieces of case law and the CPS charging standard.

You'd be better off arguing your point rather than being insulting.

But he keeps saying this:
Section 31 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999 (already provided link) provides a statutory defence for refugees committing particular offences, providing they satisfy stated conditions.

The applicable offences under section 31(3) are:

• Part 1 of the Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981 (forgery and connected offences)
• Section 24A of the Immigration Act 1971 (use of deception to obtain or seek to obtain leave to enter or remain or to secure avoidance, postponement or revocation of enforcement action)
• Section 26(1)(d) of the Immigration 1971 Act (falsification of documents)
• Sections 4(1) and 6(1) of the Identity Documents Act 2010

The conditions that must be satisfied for the defence to apply are set out at section 31(1) and (2).

Under section 31(5) a refugee is not entitled to this defence in relation to any offence committed after making a claim for asylum. You claim or you don't claim, there is no "intending to claim". Consequently, a defendant who enters the country either clandestinely or legally, claims asylum, and then obtains false documents for use in attempting to travel to another country, would be outside the scope of section 31. This quite clearly impacts an Asylum seeker, intercepted in Italy or France on route to the UK.

The recent judgement made it explicitly clear that minor breaches of immigration law are excusable for those claiming, or intending to claim asylum. It went on to say that any reasonable delay in that application is also excusable.
In the case in question, the appellants (it was an appeal brought against the CPS) were only transiting UK to apply for asylum in Canada.
It went on to say that the CPS should have referred the case to the Home Office because CPS do not have discretion on whether to prosecute or not. The Home Office do have discretion and should not have proceeded with the prosecution under the circumstances.

It's pointless quoting laws that are excusable under certain circumstances.
As I replied to Odds, under some circumstances, minor breaches are excusable.

 

[Odds]

It's clear the Home Office is using such twisty legal terms in order to speed up the asylum claims process. A quick stroke of the pen and hey presto! Manston is cleared in a matter of days when the previous process took too long and left them there for months.
A legal expediency to dig themselves out of a political hole.

 

[Pat ex]

If you're using backdoor channels to enter any country then you're doing so illegally, regardless of political advocacy. More sophistry.

The judgement made it quite clear, that minor breaches are excusable for asylum seekers, or those intending to claim asylum.
Your argument rests on the basis that a minor offence is not excusable under any circumstances.
Clearly minor infringements are excusable under some circumstances.
Yes, a speeding infringement is a speeding infringement, but it's excusable and understandable in some circumstances, and I suspect we'd all ignore the speeding or parking restrictions under some circumstances.
In an emergency, if your life, or a life of one of your family was in danger, would you observe all laws in the process of saving a life? Of course the observance of laws is your last concen.