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Insulating my ancient living room

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Dear All,

Despite having been a member here for more than a decade, I’ve never previously tried to document the “big picture” of what I’m doing. So I’m going to fix that now with some posts about the latest instalment of my years-long project to insulate my flat.

I live in a ground floor flat in an old building - originally built in 1643, but remodelled several times, most recently in about 1980 when it was divided into flats. The old construction is very thick stone, and the newer parts are either brick (where load-bearing) or stud. The stone walls are lined with plasterboard on studwork. The floors are boards on ~60mm joists sat on a modern concrete sub-floor. There is zero insulation anywhere, and as there are also single-glazed sash windows it is cold and/or expensive to heat (or both).

Over the years I have been improving it room-at-a-time. So far I’ve done two rooms plus the hall, and now I’ve started on the living room. My hope is that I made all the mistakes in less conspicuous places and now I know what I’m doing I’ll get everything right in this main room!

The room is something like 4.5m x 5.5m. It has two large sunny windows on the South wall. The North wall, on the other hand, is somewhat subterranean (the building is on a slope). Here’s a photo of the South wall:

IMG_2506.jpeg


I’ve removed the plasterboard, but the studwork is still in place. The walls are a mixture of good dressed stones, other old stones and some modern brick to fill gaps. Below window level, everything is covered with a layer of modern cement - presumably as an attempt at waterproofing.

Here’s the East wall:

IMG_2509.jpeg


There are a few nice old stones, but most of it is lumps of rubble and bricks of various ages. The bricked-up fireplace was a surprise (for reasons that will become clear later!); it has a missing brick as a vent, but the corresponding vent in the plasterboard had been blocked up so I guess I’ll need to reinstate that.

This isn’t actually an external wall - but being about 1m thick and in contact with the ground at the base and its left end, it will still benefit from insulation.

In the other rooms I’ve removed the studwork and rebuilt from scratch to suit the insulation, but here it seems to be in better condition and I’m considering how I can modify it to accommodate the insulation batts, as that will reduce cost and waste. The timer is 50x47mm; for the external walls I’ll use 100mm wood fibre batts. I was considering making it deeper by adding battens to the front, but I’m also considering detaching the frames and moving them forward into the room, with or without something attached to the back. In any case, I will add more noggins to hopefully make them feel a bit more solid.

The next job, and the final bit of demolition, is to remove the floor.

Stay tuned for updates!
 
That's an excellent ongoing project you have there (y) Insulating an old property has to be a much-needed improvement. Are you going to add new secondary glazing or upgrade the existing?
You mentioned brick where loadbearing or stud. I've worked in old properties where stud walling was load bearing and had done so efficiently for many years before I saw them. Some Elizabethan builders were masters of their craft :yes:
 
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PIR between, PIR in front, use your battens to create a service void (wires) that also helps the silver foiling do its reflective job
 
This afternoon I’ve lifted the first bit of floor:

IMG_0522.jpeg


I’m surprised by the subfloor. In all the other rooms I’ve found a pretty rough concrete surface, but here it appears to be some sort of screed, self-levelling compound, or possibly even bitumen. I’ll clean a patch up and then maybe you can help me identify it? If it is something impermeable then I won’t need a polythene layer below the insulation panels.
 
Here’s the room’s West wall, which was hidden behind a pile of junk when I posted the other photos:

IMG_0523.jpeg

I’m so jealous of anyone who is able to work in an empty property. It took a lot of work to move all the furniture out of this room, and every other corner of the flat is now full. So the only place for materials that haven’t been used yet and waste to-be-disposed-of is in this room itself. (There’s a small amount of space outside in the rain.) So from time to time I have to move everything from one end of the room to another.

Beyond this wall is the kitchen. The coloured glass bricks are one of the first things that I did when I moved here. There was previously just an open hatchway - so all kitchen smells were shared with the living room. Interestingly the hole was originally a doorway.

The wall is mostly modern brick; the right part has some plasterboard boxing around a soil stack from upstairs. The right part of that is empty behind, and I have considered making an inset bookcase or something.

Removing the floor has revealed some interesting plumbing. At some point the boiler has been moved to the kitchen, and at some other time it has been replaced with a combi. Working out which pipes do what is a detective puzzle. I got a surprise when I discovered that one 15mm pipe is a gas pipe. I also discovered that the central heating pipes go down from 22mm to 15mm before they even get to the first radiator, before returning to 22mm.
 
I’ve now removed the studwork frames from around the left hand window, exposing more of the stone.

IMG_0524.jpeg
IMG_0525.jpeg


I’ve also removed the plasterboard above the window that was covering these timbers:

IMG_0526.jpeg


My resistance moisture meter reports something around 11-12% for those timbers, which I think is OK (right?). I’m unsure how old they are; I guess that they are probably from the 1980 conversion, and were inserted into the older stonework.
 
11-12% is good for an old building and these days anything below 20% is considered acceptable. Too dry and cracking could occur.
 
The problem you have, is the problem that is always there when you contemplate internally insulating - the wall behind will be colder as it will be insulated from heat in the room. If the room air is 20 degrees ish and around 60% humidity (average ambient in a lived-in space), the dew point will be about 12 degrees. If any of that air hits stone at a temperature below that, you get liquid water. If your insulation is breathable, the room air will pass through and get to the cold stone.

Somehow you have to plan for this. In a modern timber frame house where the inner leaf is insulation within a timber structure, and the outer leaf is brick/block/stone or whatever, there is always a ventilated cavity between to carry away any condensation and/or water penetration within the wall structure. In a modern building there is also a VCL immediately under the decorative finish, to inhibit humid room air getting in to the wall, and a breathable membrane on the cold side of the insulation facing the ventilated space, to allow any condensation to escape in to the ventilated cavity, if it does form.

You need to think about the temperature gradient through your wall, how and where any condensation might occur, and if it does occur, how you are going to provide for its evaporation.
 
You need to think about the temperature gradient through your wall, how and where any condensation might occur, and if it does occur, how you are going to provide for its evaporation.

I’m now a decade into this project and the first year or more was spent understanding current thinking on this and related subjects and deciding what I should do. I have listed building consent for the work.

One useful general resource is the Historic Scotland collection of case studies:


A recent report specifically about using wood fibre for internal wall insulation is here:


I suspect that in the case of the wall that I’ve shown above, even a more conventional insulation (e.g. blown polystyrene beads behind the plasterboard) would have had a low risk of condensation. That’s based on case studies in nearby buildings, and because it is south facing and sheltered, and isn’t a kitchen or bathroom. Using wood fibre here is a conservative choice.

The opposite wall is more problematic and I’ll write more about that in due course.
 
@endecotp - thanks for the links. The deep moisture report I had seen before, the Scottish one not, and there looks to be some interesting case studies there. I think one of the introductory statements in the moisture report is important:-

There are concerns that retrofitting homes with IWI will increase moisture risk. An internally
insulated wall is thermally decoupled from the indoor environment and so will be colder in
winter than an uninsulated wall or a wall with external wall insulation. Reducing the
temperature of the wall will increase the relative humidity (RH) of the air at the interfaces of
materials and in their pores, increasing condensation. The accumulation of moisture in the
walls of buildings can lead to severe damage, such as the rotting of structural timber floor joists
that are embedded in the wall [4] and mould that grows on damp walls can affect the health of
occupants
[5]. Previous modelling work (in particular, dynamic hygrothermal simulation) shows
clearly that IWI6 can increase the risk of moisture related damage [4,6].
There is, at present, no universally accepted method or criteria for accurately predicting that
moisture problems will occur.
The outputs of models have a high degree of uncertainty
because of the aleatory uncertainty in indoor environment (temperature and RH) and outdoor
environment (air temperature, RH, rainfall, windspeed, and wind direction) both of which
influence moisture risk to a great extent [6]. The indoor environment is influenced significantly
by the occupants’ moisture generation, ventilation, and heating practices. These practices vary
considerably from time to time and from home to home, and so are difficult to represent in
models.

....which echos everything I have ever said on this forum about interstitial condensation. In my own recent project with IWI (1902 Edwardian) I had the benefit of a well ventilated cavity. I have relied upon 1) using VCL and impervious internal finishes to minimise room air getting in to the wall structure plus 2) the ventilated cavity being enough to carry away any condensation that does occur. 6 years in, so far so good!

IMHO a technical understanding, as you obviously have, of the cycle and causes of condensation and evaporation goes a long way to designing out the risks - but each case is different!
 
My main activity recently has been disposing of the old plasterboard, carpet and radiators (£165 spent so far) which I’ll not bore you with. But today I’ve installed the first bit of insulation, which feels like a milestone worth recording:

IMG_0527.jpeg


This is the East wall, where I’m installing the insulation into the existing 50mm studwork. The insulation is 50mm Pavaflex Light wood fibre.

Of course the batts are intended for 600mm studwork centres but mine are 400, so I have to chop them up. I’m supposed to maintain a 25mm gap between the insulation and the masonry, and these thin batts do slump a bit (the 100mm ones are better). I’ve decided they’re OK where I’ve used a single piece, but where I have a join I’ve added some support behind. I’ve got a roll of orange plastic fencing which I’ve tediously tacked in place.
 
Here’s a photo of the right-hand window, which was the last area to have the studwork removed and will be the first to get it back:

IMG_0530.jpeg


I’m re-using the old 50mm studwork frames with the new 100mm insulation; I considered various ways of doing that, and decided to have the insulation overhanging the back of the frames, held in place with netting (orange fencing). This gives a good continuous layer of insulation, overlapping the noggins etc. I’ve just started assembling the first frame on the ground.

IMG_0532.jpeg


I’ve cut slots in the batts where the wood is. This seems to be a pretty easy way of doing it, though I’m aware that dealing with e.g. electrics will be more difficult as the insulation can’t be removed for access from the front.
 
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Great, and thorough, job you’re doing there. Shame you can keep some of that old stone exposed, but I completely understand why you can’t.
 

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