Inbuild speaker system in kitchen ceiling

[nero44]

Hello Everybody,

planning a full kitchen refurb next year and would like to have some ceiling speakers. It should be a relatively simple system. Two speakers built into the ceiling, somewhere there needs to be an amp, and then a wall mounted control system. In its simplest form, it should have BT connectivity, so I can have the speakers play audio from my phone. I am currently not using any other audio systems (Sonos or so) in my house, so not bound to any brands. No overkill necessary, but would consider recommended extras. I don't know if people still use 3.5mm connectors that should be part of the wall unit? Should be something as little visible as possible (e.g. the amo), but a sleek simple control system somewhere in the wall.

Would anyone please have any recommendation? Will probably not DIY it, but want to supply the sparky with the system I choose.

 

[HayMaker]

I would say, don't over complicate it. You can get ceilng speakers for £38 which are nice and white and slim, but they won't be the best in terms of sound quality. If you're not that fussed then they'll be fine. Otherwise, you can get much better car speakers to paint wite and fit, providing you have enough clearance inbetween the ceiling and upstairs boards, and have the skills to mount them and make them look finished.

Any old Amp will do, if you buy an older/used one then you can just plug in a BT receiver into one of the inputs. I use a £12 receiver in my shed and it's worked perfectly for 10 years now. Or better still, one of the new chinese units from amazon are amazing for the price. I also used one of those in my garage. You can hide your Amp in a cupboard, just ensure you mount your BT receiver somewhere in good line of site; on top the fridge worked for us. Bear in mind if you have your amp on top one of the kitchen units, it will gather grease which can drop in through the air slots in the amp, so that's very dangerous. Hence why the amp should be in a cupboard

 

[nero44]

Thanks. Speakers therefore are passive? i.e. they just need audio cables from the amp to the speakers, no power required?

So you are saying I don't really need a wall control unit, but just an Amp somewhere which connects to a BT receiver? And then everything is effectively controlled via device (whatever I choose to connect to that BT receiver?).

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

I use one of these in the garage https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07BQC7GNL?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_dt_b_fed_asin_title_2&th=1 , it's mounted under the workbench out of sight and would be small enough to mount under kitchen wall cupboards assuming you had a pelmet but easy to use with muscle memory, Bluetooth connectivity has always been faultless when I've tested it, it just connects to the device without any switching necessary. If you wanted decent sound quality I would see if you can work some bookshelf speakers in to your design somehow.

 

[opps]

The following might help

Active vs Passive Ceiling Speakers: What's The Best?

The choice between active (powered) and passive ceiling speakers depends on various factors, including your specific audio setup, preferences, and the intended use of the speakers. Here's a comparison to help you decide which may be the best option for your needs: What are Active Ceiling...

www.kbaudio.co.uk

 

[HayMaker]

Thanks. Speakers therefore are passive? i.e. they just need audio cables from the amp to the speakers, no power required?

So you are saying I don't really need a wall control unit, but just an Amp somewhere which connects to a BT receiver? And then everything is effectively controlled via device (whatever I choose to connect to that BT receiver?).

Most speakers are passive i.e. need a power amplifier to make a sound. You can get active speakers with an amp built into them, but they are more like bookshelf speakers. They will also be not as good as "separates" because they cram a small, cheap amp into the speakers. That's never going to be as good as an external amp. Even the little units like @freddiemercurystwin posted are really good for the money - and take up less space.

Speaker wire is quite cheap (£1/metre) for basic stuff and that works fine. You can spend 100x that but you won't norice any difference with a budget setup.

You could consider bookshelf speakers in each corner of the room, as I said above it depends how greasy your kitchen gets. Wipe your finger across the top of one of the units and you'll soon see.

Advantage of ceiling speakers is they're designed for the job, flush mount, and the cabling can go through the ceiling cavity and come out behind a unit for example. Or Bookshelf speakers will look nicer if you have room for them, i.e. make them a feature, and the sound quality will be better.

 

[nero44]

Thanks all, very useful info. Kitchen design is far from final, need to agree with the mrs....

but it seems active speakers bit if a faff and risk putting cheap components... so passive, with cable to a location (still to be finalised) and then any decent amp to feed it with BT receiver seems to be a good way. Definitely want ceiling mounted flush mount.

 

[Lucid]

I've installed in-ceiling speakers with streaming audio for customers where the systems have been based on Sonos/Bluesound multiroom amps, and Zone 2 out from AV receivers, and (for commercial applications) in-wall/on-wall single gang-sized amplifiers.

Before Sonos really took off, (and before we had streaming audio services and the smartphones to drive it), the solutions for discrete in-ceiling audio were based on wall control panels connected to remote amplifiers wired to ceiling speakers. It was clumsy, expensive, and took up a lot of space. QED Systemline, Opus Octopus, the original Yamaha MusicCast system, Linn Knekt and others. I've been there, worn the T-shirts, and would rather not go back, thanks. Wall keypads are not where we need to be for a simple music system in a single room in the 21st century.

For someone going down the DIY route, I would strongly recommend something along the lines of Lithe Audio's active in-ceiling speaker kit.

There's one powered speaker and one passive speaker. Your spark can tap into the lighting circuit for the powered speaker. The passive speaker runs via a speaker wire from the powered unit. There's enough power here for an average-sized kitchen, and the Lithe smartphone app gives you EQ control. If you'd prefer to have some sort of permanent controller always available in the kitchen, consider buying a small Android tablet. The app can run on several devices.

Streaming quality varies quite considerably depending on the service and whether you go free or paid tier. Bluetooth will also leave its fingerprint on the sound. This system is certainly good enough to let you hear the differences between Spotify and Tidal, but maybe not so much between Tidal and Qobuz at their best. For that, you'd need to switch away from the bottleneck of Bluetooth streaming and go Wi-Fi instead. A Bluesound Powernode amp and Bluecube speakers would be the level, but you'd be looking at £1.400 in hardware rather than £250.

There's something extra you will need if there's any sort of habitable space above the kitchen. This would be fire hoods. Standard plasterboard has a fire rating of 30 minutes. This means it will keep a fire contained so it doesn't spread from a closed room for 30 minutes. (Smoke is something else.) When you cut holes in the plasterboard to fit lights or speakers, you should also fit some protection to restore the protection. A couple of the Hoody 2 fire hoods will do the trick. That, and some intumescent sealant which your sparky will pick up from Screwfix or Toolstation.

That should do you.

 

[nero44]

Thanks @Lucid very good content and lots to think about! Before posting, I was actually looking at something like QAcoustics and thought that this might fit quite well for my needs. The reason I thought a wall controller is handy is of course part aesthetics but also the idea that any person in the kitchen can go and turn volume up/down or switch off rather than being bound to the person who is connected to it via BT via their device. A tablet could do, but then is not inbuilt and requires to be charged or have visible wires.

fwiw, the kitchen will be a complete teardown, so new fresh wiring for everything. I plan to retire in this house, but perhaps it is still prudent to get something compatible to some of the mainstream home automation systems even though I won't use it. I supposed in such a case a passive wiring with separate amp allows for most flexibility as anyone could just connect their own amp (sonos or something else smart).

The Litheaudio system seems like it is always on? I.e. one could install a switched spur in between to be able to completely switch off the system when not in use.

And also a more generic question: is it advisable to cover the speakers with some sort of sound insulation from above (in addition to fire hoods)? So that the floor above does not get too much? Or will it not make a noticeable difference? Above the kitchen is my office, so generally not a big issue just asking out of interest.

 

[Lucid]

Before posting, I was actually looking at something like QAcoustics and thought that this might fit quite well for my needs. The reason I thought a wall controller is handy is of course part aesthetics but also the idea that any person in the kitchen can go and turn volume up/down or switch off rather than being bound to the person who is connected to it via BT via their device. A tablet could do, but then is not inbuilt and requires to be charged or have visible wires.

I think that having a decent selection of options allows you to pick what works best for you, and your point about changing the volume is valid.

Something that always niggles about Bluetooth is what happens when you get social media and message alerts, and of course phone calls. There are ways around this with phone settings as long as someone remembers to make the changes each time. This is one of the big advantages of a Wi-Fi-based system. It's independent other than using the phone/tablet for control unless in Bluetooth mode.

The Litheaudio system seems like it is always on? I.e. one could install a switched spur in between to be able to completely switch off the system when not in use.

This is true of all this kind of tech, whether it's Lithe, QAcoustics, Sonos or something else. TVs and soundbars are other examples. Low-power standby allows for OS updates in down time, and for the gear to be ready without a lengthy booting process or dropping into OS update mode just at the wrong time. You can fit a switched spur though.

but perhaps it is still prudent to get something compatible to some of the mainstream home automation systems even though I won't use it.

When you get into the Wi-Fi connected gear then the options open up.

And also a more generic question: is it advisable to cover the speakers with some sort of sound insulation from above (in addition to fire hoods)? So that the floor above does not get too much? Or will it not make a noticeable difference? Above the kitchen is my office, so generally not a big issue just asking out of interest.

That's a very good question. Sound radiates from the back of loudspeakers almost as much as from the front, so yes, if someone else in the house is likely to be using the kitchen speakers when someone is in the room above then it's good to think about how that sound will travel.

Properly sealed, the Hoodys will reduce the sound bleed back to the standard you'd get with heavier grades of 12.5mm plasterboard (10kg/sq mtr). If you need more sound insulation than this, the next stages are filling the ceiling void with acoustic wool, or rolling out the big guns with a Dynamat Dynabox per speaker. These are expensive, but less mess and hassle than ripping out a ceiling to fill it with acoustic wool and then reboarding. However, you might have energy conservation reasons which makes the wool treatment more suitable, so everyone's mileage is different.

 

[Jurassicspark]

planning a full kitchen refurb next year and would like to have some ceiling speakers. It should be a relatively simple system. Two speakers built into the ceiling, somewhere there needs to be an amp, and then a wall mounted control system.

A stereo setup?

You also need to plan the best placement of these speakers.

 

[Jurassicspark]

Most speakers are passive i.e. need a power amplifier to make a sound. You can get active speakers with an amp built into them, but they are more like bookshelf speakers. They will also be not as good as "separates" because they cram a small, cheap amp into the speakers.

If the amplifier inside active speakers is really ‘crammed in and cheap,’ how can it provide enough power and control for the speaker to function properly?

An external amplifier, powering multiple passive speakers, can reduce it's output.

 

[nero44]

A stereo setup?

You also need to plan the best placement of these speakers.

yes that would be the next step.

I expect the kitchen to be roughly 4.5m x 6.5/7m depending on planning permission. So a fairly rectangular setup. It is likely that speakers will be more used during cooking and general social gathering, rather than when seated at dining area. Again it doesn't have to be a theatre experience. So would a stereo system with just 2 speakers (one in the upper part and one in the lower part of the rectangular space be sufficient? So with L / R side speakers. Or would that materially change the sound leading to an audible difference when moving from one part of the kitchen to anther part, thus making just 2 mono speakers a better option.. (at least it's equal all over?)

 

[Lucid]

If the amplifier inside active speakers is really ‘crammed in and cheap,’ how can it provide enough power and control for the speaker to function properly?

An external amplifier, powering multiple passive speakers, can reduce it's output.

Space and power in the form of current has never really been a problem for Class D amps. The limitations of Class D are the ability to raise voltage, and rhe quality of circuit design.

You see, Class D got a bad name because it was really easy (and cheap!) to make a small and potent amp so long as it didn't need to raise a high voltage and sound quality was a low priority.

High voltage in stereo equipment terms is needed if the speakers are 8 Ohm nominal impedance. Depending on how loud one wishes to play, they could need 25~30 volts. Using high sensitivity speakers - something like the 86~90dB bookshelf speakers of the 1990s - needs a lot of voltage but relatively little current. This plays well with modest Class A/B transformer-based amps.

Cheap Class D works better with low Ohms speakers, say the 3-4 Ohms of surround sound systems and in-car speakers. Also, it doesn't matter if the speakers have low sensitivity. The amp can hose out a lot of current to compensate for it.

What we had then is an avalanche of Class D amps made with a relatively low component count - so cheap to build - and designed to play loud rather with the rather poor quality speakers they were coupled to. All of this to make cheap stereo mini systems, and cheap car stereos, and cheap home surround systems, and cheap... and cheap... and cheap... You get the picture.

It didn't have to be this way. Class D could be done just as well as Class A/B, but it cost money. Some time in the late 2000s, Onkyo made a Class D stereo audiophile amp for around £500 iirc. It was bloody good, and I do mean bloody good. It gave the ARCAMs, Rotels, Creeks, etc a damned good run for their money. The problem at the time though was the perception of Class D as poor for all the reasons above. Listening without that prejudice would have resulted in a far more favourable reception. The audiophile community though is very cliquey.

Brands such as Fosi have shown that its possible to build good sounding small Class D amps at accessible prices if carefully designed and with more modest power output ambitions. The same can be true for the amplification in smart speakers and powered speakers.

 

[Lucid]

yes that would be the next step.

I expect the kitchen to be roughly 4.5m x 6.5/7m depending on planning permission. So a fairly rectangular setup. It is likely that speakers will be more used during cooking and general social gathering, rather than when seated at dining area. Again it doesn't have to be a theatre experience. So would a stereo system with just 2 speakers (one in the upper part and one in the lower part of the rectangular space be sufficient? So with L / R side speakers. Or would that materially change the sound leading to an audible difference when moving from one part of the kitchen to anther part, thus making just 2 mono speakers a better option.. (at least it's equal all over?)

Twin mono is the way to go, though I have to say, that's a big space to cover with just two speakers, even bookshelf speakers.