Radiator Sludge

[RainTown]

Hi

I have an old, second floor apartment with very old piping under pretty new flooring. I previously posted here about an issue with a Volkera boiler. This has since been replaced by a Baxi boiler, which has been serviced and AFAIK is working fine. The apartment is not used much in winter. The central heatings system is 6 radiators plus a large (and new) towel rail.

The firm that fitted the new boiler did really fast, and I think probably not very good, job at install time. They removed all the radiators from the wall, emptied them into a drain outside, and of course refilled the system when boiler was installed. There were other issues with the installation of the boiler, and a Gas Safe inspector found some issues which were rather grumpily addressed by the Gas Safe certified company. I will never deal with that company again.

3 of the radiators just dont get particularly warm. I have checked with radiator key, and they do not seem to require being bled.

To be honest they did not get particularly warm before the new boiler was installed.

I really dont know, but suspect there is a buildup of sludge that just quickly empty-ing them at boiler install day didn't really budge.

And asked local plumber to take a look. He said the very likely needed a power flush, and recommended a small filter device added near the boiler so that once clean it stays clean. He said he would get back to me with a formal quote, probably around 700-800 quid he said, But as he was checking things I was telling him the story about the boiler install and I think he got cold feet when he realized I had contacted Gas Safe - I showed him their report. He was also insistent he would not recommend to take any "sludge" and send it down my kitchen or bathroom sink. and I should say he came recommended, and genuine.

As he didn't get back to me for ages, then said he had no slots for a couple of months, I asked another local company. They told me the first guy must be a complete cowboy, as 2nd guy had been doing central heating power-flushing for 20 odd years and always just puts the gunk down the sink. No need for any filter in his view, and job was quick and easy and would cost 450 quid. Trouble was he himself came across really poorly, spent most of the time moaning that I'd found the first guy's details via the Internet, which is cowboy central, and not perhaps realizing that's where I had found his details too. Of course I don't really care if the workman who doe the work is a great guy or not, just competent.

So now I am a little confused.

Any input much appreciated. I don't have great DIY skills, so I presume this is beyond my own abilities. Know Your Limits

Cheers, KM

PS: bathroom towel heater gets really warm all over, hall radiator too, and smallest bedroom (and least used) radiator. One of bedroom rads gets warm, but it's a bit patchy. The other 2 both really poor, just the top of the radiators gets a bit warm, eventually.

 

[dilalio]

There were other issues with the installation of the boiler, and a Gas Safe inspector found some issues

This is why he bailed out.

Any tradesman would be wary of a customer that tells them, on first meeting, that they are apt to call in work checkers!

What are the details of the boiler issues? And did you try and resolve with installers before calling Gas Safe?

 

[spile]

It’s a case of finding the right installer/engineer and ideally a personal recommendation. One tip is to find a highly recommended one that is too busy and as them to recommend a local smaller company that is more likely to be available.

 

[RainTown]

This is why he bailed out.

Any tradesman would be wary of a customer that tells them, on first meeting, that they are apt to call in work checkers!

What are the details of the boiler issues? And did you try and resolve with installers before calling Gas Safe?

So, I like to be thorough and explain the history, Like I did when starting this thread. I dont know what aspects are important. I am IT professional and "X does not work" is the most common, and pretty useless, problem report.

I get it that he maybe thought "dont want this guy as a customer". He specifically asked "why the boiler installation guys didn't do/check any of this? Why dont you call them now?". Serious question, how would you recommend I reply to that?

If you are Gas Safe registered, use that to help get you the job in first place, and the customer is unhappy with your work, and the tradesman refuses to do anything about it, then I think calling Gas Safe was a reasonable thing to do. The Gas Safe inspector found many (at least 5) things wrong with the job, put a big sticker on the boiler that it should not be used until they were addressed, and the tradesmen later came back and addressed the issues. Of course I tried to address it with the installation company first. And obviously the guy, when he came back, was not that happy. One thing he did not do was complete a commissioning checklist. No receipt. Didn't register the boiler with Baxi. Various technical things, e.g. angle of flue was not within correct range. They were very clearly trying to get stuff done as quickly as possible, all a mad rush as one of the guys had a train to catch.

But all of that is a 2 year ago story., it was annoying and upsetting at the time, but it's in the past and I cant change it now.

My thread now is more intended to be about the issues with radiators / sludge now. If you (or anyone) can just forget about the boiler installation aspect, what to do now?

 

[RainTown]

It’s a case of finding the right installer/engineer and ideally a personal recommendation. One tip is to find a highly recommended one that is too busy and as them to recommend a local smaller company that is more likely to be available.

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Madrab]

Bit surprised though, given the fact that sorting out and system sludge/restrictions would have nothing to do with Gas Safe or anyone else TBH.

There should be confidence in the sludge diagnosis from the independent and TBH it should be relatively easy to sort out even with a mains flush, even though it would still be caveated, as it can be a problem to shift if there are restrictions in the pipework. Is the pipework up to the rads microbore or 15mm?

 

[dilalio]

So, I like to be thorough and explain the history, Like I did when starting this thread. I dont know what aspects are important. I am IT professional and "X does not work" is the most common, and pretty useless, problem report.

I get it that he maybe thought "dont want this guy as a customer". He specifically asked "why the boiler installation guys didn't do/check any of this? Why dont you call them now?". Serious question, how would you recommend I reply to that?

If you are Gas Safe registered, use that to help get you the job in first place, and the customer is unhappy with your work, and the tradesman refuses to do anything about it, then I think calling Gas Safe was a reasonable thing to do. The Gas Safe inspector found many (at least 5) things wrong with the job, put a big sticker on the boiler that it should not be used until they were addressed, and the tradesmen later came back and addressed the issues. Of course I tried to address it with the installation company first. And obviously the guy, when he came back, was not that happy. One thing he did not do was complete a commissioning checklist. No receipt. Didn't register the boiler with Baxi. Various technical things, e.g. angle of flue was not within correct range. They were very clearly trying to get stuff done as quickly as possible, all a mad rush as one of the guys had a train to catch.

But all of that is a 2 year ago story., it was annoying and upsetting at the time, but it's in the past and I cant change it now.

My thread now is more intended to be about the issues with radiators / sludge now. If you (or anyone) can just forget about the boiler installation aspect, what to do now?

Don't be touchy buddy.

I was just telling how it is... From a "conscientious" gas safe - sole traders' POV.

There are many types of tradesmen and many types of customer.

If your install was plagued with "safety issues" (which an AR or even ID) suggests it was, then that's one thing... And law dictates this is the bare minimum required...
Then system aspects (ie sludge and circulation) is likely to have been way off the agenda!

BUT... customers decision is final and I have been told many times... Just change the boiler, despite my warnings about warranty!

As long as it meets the regulations (and is SAFE) then the installer's arse is covered!

In today's society, that's all that really matters for many.

 

[RainTown]

Bit surprised though, given the fact that sorting out and system sludge/restrictions would have nothing to do with Gas Safe or anyone else TBH.

There should be confidence in the sludge diagnosis from the independent and TBH it should be relatively easy to sort out even with a mains flush, even though it would still be caveated, as it can be a problem to shift if there are restrictions in the pipework. Is the pipework up to the rads microbore or 15mm?

Thanks for the answer.

2 different matters, though of course same property. The whole Gas Safe aspect was to do with the Baxi boiler installation ca: 2 years ago, which I included to give some context/background.

The sludge issue, or rather the "some radiators dont get very hot at all, very patchy at best" is the "now" issue.

 

[RainTown]

Don't be touchy buddy.

I was just telling how it is... From a "conscientious" gas safe - sole traders' POV.

There are many types of tradesmen and many types of customer.

If your install was plagued with "safety issues" (which an AR or even ID) suggests it was, then that's one thing... And law dictates this is the bare minimum required...
Then system aspects (ie sludge and circulation) is likely to have been way off the agenda!

BUT... customers decision is final and I have been told many times... Just change the boiler, despite my warnings about warranty!

As long as it meets the regulations (and is SAFE) then the installer's arse is covered!

In today's society, that's all that really matters for many.

The boiler installation was a really upsetting experience. You can call that touchy if you want? I didn't like a) being physically threatened and b) having to waste a lot of my time to get it sorted via the industry regulator, which also wasn't easy. I had to postpone my new kitten installation for 3 months too, which was also a PITA.

The Gas Safe report sent to me and the installers reads:

--> snip

The content of this report is based on information provided to Gas Safe Register, either prior to, and/or during our inspection, and refers to the findings at the time of the site visit. ... Installation defects fall into the following classifications:

• Immediately Dangerous
• At Risk
• Not to Current Standards
• Building Regulations Non-Compliances

--> snip

then proceeds to list all the 12 defects with the boiler installation:

5x - At Risk
5x - Not to Current Standards
2x - Building Regulations Non-Compliances

There seems a bit of victim blaming here if you think *I* am somehow at fault for any of that? But it's now part of the history of the heating system, sadly. And it's NOT the topic I posted here about.

The (possible) sludge issues are the "now" issue, nothing directly to do with the boiler installation from ca: 2 years ago. Except that the guys who did the boiler installation said they had "cleaned out the whole system". As I said, that involved taking all the existing radiators off the wall, taking them outside, and emptying contents down the drain, and then re-attaching them to wall and pipework. But, to be clear, I had not asked nor was it invoiced, that he would do anything with the radiators, just supply and relocate/install (about 1m away from previous position) the new Baxi 430 Combi 2 boiler, for which they charged me 3300 pounds.

The heating never really worked well since then, though I also note the apartment is relatively little used, particularly in winter. Hot water has never been a problem. I am pretty confident the boiler is fine, its had 2 services since then.

I would REALLY appreciate some advice on the "now" issue, rather than re-visit what was a pretty traumatic experience. in early 2024. "powerflush" the system, chucking what gunk is removed down the kitchen sink? Change the radiators? Something else?

 

[gas112]

Taking rads off and flushing them outside with a hose is going to clean them far better than a powerflush

 

[dilalio]

If the pipework is furred up/blocked then that needs either flushing or repiping!

The heating never really worked well since then,

Did it work well before?
What boiler was replaced?
Was it also a combi?
Was the system open vent and sealed up?

 

[dilalio]

5x - At Risk
5x - Not to Current Standards
2x - Building Regulations Non-Compliances

Care to include the 12 defects?
Be interested to know.

 

[spile]

Taking rads off and flushing them outside with a hose is going to clean them far better than a powerflush

But won’t do anything to deal with the residue in the pipe work.

 

[gas112]

But won’t do anything to deal with the residue in the pipe work.

which can be dealt with with chemical clean and hot and cold flushes in the vast majority of cases . But then again that doesnt generate £££ for unnecessary work

 

[dilalio]

But won’t do anything to deal with the residue in the pipe work.

Purging flow and return into a bucket /hose while rad is off will reveal a lot.