Economy 7 clock wrong

[JohnW2]

Obviously, there has been some mix up in the swap, from the original meter system, where there was just a single supply tail, and the OP had his off-peak CU fed from his own clock, and the new meter.

I doubt it ....

The OP needs to find himself an electrician, to simply swap his off-peak CU over to this off-peak meter tail.

I think you'll find that it already is connected to the "off-peak meter tail". The folk on MSE seem to be saying that this has recently been a fairly common problem, with the settings of the 'clock' controlling the off-peak tail being out-of-synch with the E7 'cheap period" and that this can easily be reprogrammed remotely by the supplier (Octopus)

His supplier, Octopus, will not be able to help with this.

Seeabove. If the problem is as has been suggested, then Octopus are probably the only people who can rectify it.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I think you'll find that it already is connected to the "off-peak meter tail". The folk on MSE seem to be saying that this has recently been a fairly common problem, with the settings of the 'clock' controlling the off-peak tail being out-of-synch with the E7 'cheap period" and that this can easily be reprogrammed remotely by the supplier (Octopus)

Doesn't the off-peak tail, switch on and off the supply, as controlled by the supplier?

In which case, I cannot see how it can be correctly wired.

 

[JohnW2]

Doesn't the off-peak tail, switch on and off the supply, as controlled by the supplier?

Indeed it does - but on and off at times specifically programmed by the supplier (which, as probably is the case with the OP, are not the correct times for 'E7 tariff change'.

In which case, I cannot see how it can be correctly wired.

Why not? If what is being suggested is the correct explanation, then the 'off-peak tail' is, as intended, turning the load on and off, but not at the correct times (because of incorrect setting./programming of its clock)

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

are not the correct times for 'E7 tariff change'.

That would be a bit pointless, don't you think?

 

[JohnW2]

That would be a bit pointless, don't you think?

Pointless or not, as I said, it has apparently been quite a common problem recently.

It is clearly undesirable that the 'switch-over' of 'off-peak loads' should be exactly at the published 'nominal' tariff-change times (e.g. usually 00:30 and 07:30 for E7) for all consumers - since millions of installations simultaneously switching on substantial loads would present significant problems for the generators and network. Most users will therefore have their 'switchover times' set slightly different from the nominal tariff-change times - the problem being that (as seemingly with the OP) the difference is sometimes a lot more than 'slight'!

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

It is clearly undesirable that the 'switch-over' of 'off-peak loads' should be exactly at the published 'nominal' tariff-change times (e.g. usually 00:30 and 07:30 for E7) for all consumers - since millions of installations simultaneously switching on substantial loads would present significant problems for the generators and network. Most users will therefore have their 'switchover times' set slightly different from the nominal tariff-change times - the problem being that (as seemingly with the OP) the difference is sometimes a lot more than 'slight'!

I think you are missing the point! I am aware that the switching has to be staggered, and the best way to do that is via the meter itself doing the switching on and off. So why is the OP's supposed off-peak loads being enabled during peak charging? The only explanation is, that his supply is derived from the LL tail, which is available 24/7, and he has a time-clock of his own, doing the switching on, too early. His supply for his off-peak, should come from the LLL, only live, during off-peak.

 

[JohnW2]

I think you are missing the point! I am aware that the switching has to be staggered, and the best way to do that is via the meter itself doing the switching on and off.

... and, in turn, you seem to be missing the facts that (a) the meter probably IS doing the switching, but (b) that there are two 'clocks', the one controlling the switching being different from (and potentially having different 'switching times' set) that relating to the nominal off-peak tariff times.

So why is the OP's supposed off-peak loads being enabled during peak charging?

If the load switching is staggered (with the range of switching times 'centred' on the nominal tariff-change times), then a few consumers will switch at almost exactly the tariff-change time, about half will switch slightly after the tariff-change time and about the other half slightly before the tariff-change time. The suggestion is ther therefore that the OP's meter is set/programmed to do the latter (and more than just 'slightly before' the tariff-change time), so that his loads are being switched on appreciably before the time at which electricity becomes cheaper.

That problem can presumably be avoided by ensuring that the switching times, although staggered, never fall outside of the cheap-rate time period (i.e. not 'centred' on those rate-change times) - and it is therefore that which has not been achieved for the consumers having this problem.

The only explanation is, that his supply is derived from the LL tail, which is available 24/7, and he has a time-clock of his own, doing the switching on, too early.

No, not the "only explanation" - see my explanation of an alternative explanation above. As I've said, I very much suspect that the OP's loads are supply by the ('switched') 'LLL' tail, but that the switching is happening at the wrong times.

His supply for his off-peak, should come from the LLL, only live, during off-peak.

Only live when its clock has switched it on - which (given that it depends upon how that clock has been set) is NOT necessarily "during off-peak" (which is probably the OP's problem).

 

[ericmark]

Until @Akustik returns we don't know what has really gone wrong. My smart meter leaves it to me to set times when I import or export electricity, so I have no knowledge of these meters.

 

[JohnW2]

Until @Akustik returns we don't know what has really gone wrong.

True, in the case of his installation.

However, according to what has been said in that other forum (and assuming that is true), what I've described above (resulting in the same manifestations as the OP has encountered) IS what has happened recently to an appreciable number of people who have an E7 tariff and an Octopus 'smart' meter.

 

[BS3036]

Whilst I detest these AI answers, the following seems to have an element of veracity:

With a 5-wire (5-terminal) SMETS2 smart meter, the nighttime tariff rate and the physical activation of the fifth wire (which powers storage heaters) do not always align perfectly because they are managed as separate, independent systems within the meter.
Here is why the times often mismatch:

Separate Scheduling (ALCS vs. Tariff): The meter has two different schedules: one for recording energy usage (the tariff rate) and another for controlling the 5th terminal, known as the Auxiliary Load Control Switch (ALCS). These two schedules must be programmed to match, but sometimes the ALCS schedule is not correctly configured by the supplier, causing the heating to turn on/off at different times than the cheaper tariff.

Grid Protection Delay: To prevent a massive surge in demand (e.g., thousands of storage heaters switching on at 00:00 simultaneously), meters often have a random delay built into their switching mechanism. This means the 5th wire might activate a few minutes after the cheaper tariff starts.

Clock Synchronization (GMT/BST): Smart meters generally operate on Coordinated Universal Time (UTC). They do not always update for British Summer Time (BST) in the spring. While the meter may keep recording the cheaper tariff rate correctly according to GMT, the 5th wire timer might not adjust, causing an hour-long mismatch.

How to Fix It:
If your heating is not coming on during your cheaper, off-peak hours, you should contact your energy supplier and request they check the ECAUL (Electricity Configure Auxiliary Load) configuration to align the ALCS calendar with your actual tariff times.

 

[JohnW2]

Whilst I detest these AI answers, the following seems to have an element of veracity:

With a 5-wire (5-terminal) SMETS2 smart meter, the nighttime tariff rate and the physical activation of the fifth wire (which powers storage heaters) do not always align perfectly because they are managed as separate, independent systems within the meter.
Here is why the times often mismatch:
Separate Scheduling (ALCS vs. Tariff): The meter has two different schedules: one for recording energy usage (the tariff rate) and another for controlling the 5th terminal, known as the Auxiliary Load Control Switch (ALCS). These two schedules must be programmed to match, but sometimes the ALCS schedule is not correctly configured by the supplier, causing the heating to turn on/off at different times than the cheaper tariff.

Thanks .... that corresponds exactly with what was said (by, I presume, human beings) in the MSE forum, and what I have been reporting here - and the following corresponds with what they have been saying (and I have been reporting here) as the ('simple') solution to the problem ...

How to Fix It: If your heating is not coming on during your cheaper, off-peak hours, you should contact your energy supplier and request they check the ECAUL (Electricity Configure Auxiliary Load) configuration to align the ALCS calendar with your actual tariff times.

 

[AndyPRK]

And this is progress

 

[JohnW2]

And this is progress

It certainly adds support to what I have been passing on from the MSE forum (thanks to Rodders53) ever since post #7, even if some people here have been arguing about it!