Economy 7 clock wrong

[SUNRAY]

You might find it 'incredible' but, if those (not a single source) informing us are telling the truth, that is how it appears to be.

It seems so

In any event, I personally not only find it very credible but, in fact, essential that there are 'two sets of timings' (one for metering and the other for load switching). Were that not the case (IF, as seems to be the case, the 'cheap electricity' period is the same for all E7 consumers), 'staggering' of the increase in demand would not be possible, since the 'off-peak-loads' of all E7 customers would switch on simultaneously, leading to potentially serious problems for generators and distributors.

You may be suggesting that, if the load switching is 'staggered' between customers, then the 'metering switching' should be correspondingly staggered.

And that is exactly what has happened historically, one of my rental properties is in a block and being there at that time they could all be heard clunking in possibly over a half hour period, equally where my Father In Law was in sheltered accomodation there were a number of 3ph contactors staggered by timers providing power to the second meter with the 24hr supply staying on full rate.

That would make sense (and would avoid the problem we are discussing) but, from what I understand, that's 'not how it is'. Indeed, if that were 'how it is' the problem being experienced by the OP (and apparently a fair number of other Octopus E7 customers) would presumably not exist?

I can't imagine for one minute they'd be able to include that in their contract

 

[JohnW2]

It seems so

Indeed. I've just been doing a fair bit of reading and it seems to confirm that the information I have been 'passing on' is corre t - both 'in general' (for 5-terminal 'smart' meters) and also probably specifically the OP's meter (which I think is a Toshiba SGM1415-B).

And that is exactly what has happened historically, one of my rental properties is in a block and being there at that time they could all be heard clunking in possibly over a half hour period, equally where my Father In Law was in sheltered accomodation there were a number of 3ph contactors staggered by timers providing power to the second meter with the 24hr supply staying on full rate.

In the days of ('single') time-switches or teleswitches external to the meter, there was obviously no possibility of this behaviour occurring, since there was only one 'time signal' which switched both the meter's TOU registers (for metering) and (where appropriate) the switched 'off-peak loads'. Whilst the actual timings were staggered between installations, within an individual installation the two things obviously happened simultaneously within the installation,hence ensuring that the off-peak loads (if switched by the meter) were always charged at off-peak rate.

I can't imagine for one minute they'd be able to include that in their contract

Not that many of us ever see these contracts that we are 'deemed to have signed' (by using the supplier's electricity), but I suspect that they might well be sufficiently vaguely worded that they could argue that the behaviour we're talking about was 'included'!

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

In any event, I personally not only find it very credible but, in fact, essential that there are 'two sets of timings' (one for metering and the other for load switching). Were that not the case (IF, as seems to be the case, the 'cheap electricity' period is the same for all E7 consumers), 'staggering' of the increase in demand would not be possible, since the 'off-peak-loads' of all E7 customers would switch on simultaneously, leading to potentially serious problems for generators and distributors.

I am likewise incredulous, that the two times should be not synced. Why would they not be? They only need to indicate, that the off-peak time has a variable, start and end timing, and that it comes on, when it comes on?

 

[SUNRAY]

I think I foresee a mass recall of smart meters in the near future and/or a legal action against octopuss/meter manufactures

 

[ericmark]

I think I foresee a mass recall of smart meters in the near future and/or a legal action against octopuss/meter manufactures

I will guess, and only a guess, all down to British Summer Time. As it seems an hour out. It seems off-peak with every tariff but economy 7 swaps between UTC and BST, the economy 7 is the odd one out. Historical thing, from when using mechanical time switches, which could not be easy changed between UTC and BST, so economy 7 used UTC all year.

So it would seem one clock changed, and the other did not.

Your smart meter will have a fixed off-peak 7 hour period from 00:30 to 07:30. This time period takes place according to Coordinated Universal Time (UTC), so during British Summer Time (BST) the 7 hour period will take place between 01:30 and 08:30. This may differ from your existing off-peak period on your current non-smart meter.

 

[AndyPRK]

Its 25mins out.

These things should be set to be in sync during winter

 

[JohnW2]

I am likewise incredulous, that the two times should be not synced. Why would they not be? They only need to indicate, that the off-peak time has a variable, start and end timing, and that it comes on, when it comes on?

It's clearly not ideal from the consumers' POV.

Is the issue perhaps that the timings used for collecting and communicating the (half-hourly or whatever) TOU data (used for billing) is constrained to use fixed and 'universal' (same foe all consumers) timings, maybe also constrained to be 'round numbers' (e.g. 00:30 and 07:30, rather than, say, 00:28 and 07:33)? If that is the case, then to use the same timings for load switching would result in no staggering of the load change, hence a major problem for the grid?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Is the issue perhaps that the timings used for collecting and communicating the (half-hourly or whatever) TOU data (used for billing) is constrained to use fixed and 'universal' (same foe all consumers) timings, maybe also constrained to be 'round numbers' (e.g. 00:30 and 07:30, rather than, say, 00:28 and 07:33)? If that is the case, then to use the same timings for load switching would result in no staggering of the load change, hence a major problem for the grid?

Nowt to stop 'em adding a variable to the switching time, such as using the last two digits of the serial number. The actual time it switches, does not matter, just that the customer gets their allotted 7 hours.

I wonder where the OP has gone, he seems to have fired off a question, and run?

 

[JohnW2]

Nowt to stop 'em adding a variable to the switching time, such as using the last two digits of the serial number. The actual time it switches, does not matter, just that the customer gets their allotted 7 hours.

In common-sense terms, it wouldn't 'matter' - but, as I said, they may be constrained (by themselves, or even perhaps by Ofgem) to have exactly the same 'billing periods' for all customers.

I wonder where the OP has gone, he seems to have fired off a question, and run?

That may be because, assuming that it's true, he got the answer he needed - namely that it is a known problem which Octopus can easily remedy remotely.

 

[AndyPRK]

The RTS switching units didn’t all switch at the same time.

So precedence there for it to continue working that way.

 

[JohnW2]

The RTS switching units didn’t all switch at the same time. So precedence there for it to continue working that way.

When used with a 5-terminal meter, RTS switching units (and external electromechanical time switches) supplied the meter with a single ('on' or 'off') time signal, which switched both the metering registers and (where implemented) 'off-peak loads'. Hence, whilst the time when the switching happened might vary between installations, the load-switching and 'billing' would always be in synch for a given installation.

 

[SUNRAY]

In common-sense terms, it wouldn't 'matter' - but, as I said, they may be constrained (by themselves, or even perhaps by Ofgem) to have exactly the same 'billing periods' for all customers.

I truly can't see why ofgem would suddenly want to change the rules when variations have been the norm and deliberately made for decades.

The RTS switching units didn’t all switch at the same time.

No and as I mentioned listening to a block of flats switching in the dead of night was a bit eery.
The other system I mentioned was a series of delay start relays off of the landlords supply RTS and in fact there were 2 meters per flat so the signal only operated the contactors and not the meters

So precedence there for it to continue working that way.

 

[JohnW2]

I truly can't see why ofgem would suddenly want to change the rules when variations have been the norm and deliberately made for decades.

They may not have changed any rules but, rather, created new ones to deal with a new situation ('smart' meters') ....

The RTS switching units didn’t all switch at the same time. ... So precedence there for it to continue working that way.

I don't think that there is any historical precedent for billing and (DNO-controlled) load switching to be out-of-sync.

In the pre-'smart'-meter days, the dumb meters simply had two registers, one for off-peak usage and one for 'peak' time usage, and switched between the two at the very same time as there was automated switching of 'off-peak loads'. The exact timings therefore did not matter - if the meter changed to the off-peak register for, say, the period 00:43 - 07:43 (rather than exactly 00:30-)7:30), the load would be switched at eaxctly those times, so the load would only be energised for the period during which the customer was going to be billed at the 'off-peak rate'.

With 'smart' meters, it is my understanding that the meters store usage data (and communicate that data to supplier, for billing) in 48 registers, each 30 minutes long, and I imagine the timings of these registers are 'round numbers' - e.g. 00:00-00:30, 00:30-01:00 etc. If that is the case (maybe I'm wrong?), then if (to achieve 'staggering') the load-switching times varied between customers, that would rarely correspond exactly with the registers' timings - so that most customers would end up paying at 'peak rate' for 'off-peak' usage or vice versa, wouldn't they?

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

In the pre-'smart'-meter days, the dumb meters simply had two registers, one for off-peak usage and one for 'peak' time usage, and switched between the two at the very same time as there was automated switching of 'off-peak loads'.

In the distant past, we had two meters - the usual black peak one, plus a white off-peak one. From memory, the entire supply, was either connected to one meter, or the other - so it was down to us, to have our own system(s) to switch on/off at the correct times.

 

[SUNRAY]

...In the pre-'smart'-meter days, the dumb meters simply had two registers, one for off-peak usage and one for 'peak' time usage, and switched between the two at the very same time as there was automated switching of 'off-peak loads'. The exact timings therefore did not matter - if the meter changed to the off-peak register for, say, the period 00:43 - 07:43 (rather than exactly 00:30-)7:30), the load would be switched at eaxctly those times, so the load would only be energised for the period during which the customer was going to be billed at the 'off-peak rate'.

I don't think anyone has any disagreement with that

With 'smart' meters, it is my understanding that the meters store usage data (and communicate that data to supplier, for billing) in 48 registers, each 30 minutes long, and I imagine the timings of these registers are 'round numbers' - e.g. 00:00-00:30, 00:30-01:00 etc. If that is the case (maybe I'm wrong?), then if (to achieve 'staggering') the load-switching times varied between customers, that would rarely correspond exactly with the registers' timings - so that most customers would end up paying at 'peak rate' for 'off-peak' usage or vice versa, wouldn't they?

Which surely has to be wrong. If has been mooted one of those actions changes by an hour but not the other (I hope I understood that correctly) then they could be paying for all of their hot water heating in that first 1½ hours of 'off peak time' at peak rate.