Controlling multiple electric heaters centrally

[danlightbulb]

When you say that, do you mean it's unlikely you can change electricity tariffs or unlikely you can install storage heaters?

I think it's easy for smart meters to switch to economy 7 these days.

But what I meant by the comment above is it's my understanding that E7 is not really used these days. It is difficult to control heat output, expensive units to install, tariffs are expensive.

What I was looking for was a smarter way to control the existing panel heaters and hot water cylinder by adding thermostats and central programmer.

 

[robinbanks]

The heatmiser neostat thermostats I use would meet your needs i think. I couldn't see any indication of the maximum power they can switch but if you didn't want switch a wall panel heater with the built in relay you can use it to switch a higher powered relay that activates the heater. You can operate them standalone or pair them to a neo hub for internet control and central config, for example

 

[EFLImpudence]

The elements in the water cylinder will each have a thermostat of their own and timers have been around for ages.

Are you sure there is not one fitted already which stops both elements being on together?

 

[danlightbulb]

Thanks I'll take a look at the product.

Re octopus cosy - yes I have looked at it briefly. Not much cheap rate and it's offset by peak rate something like 5-8pm right when youre cooking dinner in the electric oven or hob.

 

[danlightbulb]

The elements in the water cylinder will each have a thermostat of their own and timers have been around for ages.

I was looking to see if there was a system where it could all be integrated, the electric heaters and the immersion heater. Otherwise we potentially end up with multiple stats/programmers, several apps on the phone for different bits of the system.

Is there an immersion heater timer/programmer that can control the two elements in one unit?

 

[EFLImpudence]

I was looking to see if there was a system where it could all be integrated, the electric heaters and the immersion heater. Otherwise we potentially end up with multiple stats/programmers, several apps on the phone for different bits of the system.

Yes, but once the element thermostats have been set (60º) they are never altered; controlled by the length of time set to on.

Is there an immersion heater timer/programmer that can control the two elements in one unit?

Yes.

The particular model depends on whether both elements are on the same circuit or not.


I have been retired a while so am not too knowledgeable about the wi-fi stuff available but someone else will know.

After all, isn't it just a central heating system but electrically controlled.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Re octopus cosy - yes I have looked at it briefly. Not much cheap rate and it's offset by peak rate something like 5-8pm right when youre cooking dinner in the electric oven or hob.

That's why the government mandated smart meters; to stop you being so selfish.

 

[danlightbulb]

.

The particular model depends on whether both elements are on the same circuit or not.

I have been retired a while so am not too knowledgeable about the wi-fi stuff available but someone else will know.

After all, isn't it just a central heating system but electrically controlled.

The two immersion elements are on the same circuit, just fed by two separate fused spurs right next to each other on the wall.

I'm aware the temperature is set on the elements themselves so that's fine, it's just timer/programmer functionality we need.

The reason this is all so confusing to me and why I'm struggling to find products is that I need to directly switch several amps. The heating controls I've dealt with in the past are low current circuits just switching a boiler. Not directly switching a high power device.

 

[danlightbulb]

That's why the government mandated smart meters; to stop you being so selfish.

Sorry, what are accusing me of here?

 

[robinbanks]

peak rate something like 5-8pm right when youre cooking dinner

But the idea is that "if you're willing to compromise*, you can save"

If you're not willing to compromise on participating in group peak demand behaviour then you don't save so much ..

Note that when I say compromise, what I really mean is make some adjustments to the timing habits that a lifetime of experience/tradition has caused you to acquire.. it should be fairly easy to use behavioural changes or technology to move your energy consumption to another time of day so you're not caught up in the same rat race as most

 

[flameport]

But what I meant by the comment above is it's my understanding that E7 is not really used these days. It is difficult to control heat output, expensive units to install, tariffs are expensive.

Correct.
E7 is somewhat cheaper overnight, but the day rate is significantly more.
Modern storage heaters have the same disadvantages as old ones - only of use if you want to heat the building all day, every day. In the past plenty of people did. Today not so much.

Having the hot water on a timer might at least allow exploration of overnight cheaper rate electricity tariffs.

Not worth bothering with - hot water energy use is tiny compared to heating the building.
Theoretically of value if storage heaters are also in use, but only because you might as well have the hot water with the storage heaters if E7 is there.

There must be an 'official' way this type of thing is done in electric only apartments. That's what I'm looking for

The usual method is heaters with individual thermostats and programmable controls built in, most of which can be controlled via some smartphone app in various ways including grouping them together.
Some require a central hub to work like that, others not.

In the past there have been systems which can control multiple heaters from a single point using a 4th pilot wire in the mains wiring, but those are pretty much obsolete now that everything has gone the way of apps and smart junk.

smarter way to control the existing panel heaters and hot water cylinder by adding thermostats and central programmer.

Possible with various control modules such as the Shelly range of items, all this will still need a smartphone. However if you are looking at renting, this is not a viable option, as you will need an EPC for the property and if it's been fitted with non-standard or home made type controls, those won't be on the assessors software and will be rated poorly.

Is there an immersion heater timer/programmer that can control the two elements in one unit?

Yes, the Horstmann BX2000, but that is only of use if you have E7 with a switched output from the meter, and it's already wired with dual circuits to the immersion heater. It doesn't really control anything either, it just shoves the E7 supply to the lower element when that supply is powered, and allows the use of a boost function from the other circuit for the top element when the E7 is not on. Can also be used with a single element from two separate circuits if needed.
No use without E7, and not a great deal of use even when E7 is there.

Hot water heating is mostly irrelevant in terms of control - if the cylinder is a modern well insulated one, the difference between leaving it on all the time and switching on/off is minimal. Modern cylinders will retain the hot water for a day or more.
If it's an old poorly insulated one, spend the money on a new cylinder rather than fancy controls.

 

[flameport]

octopus cosy

is just E7 with some modification.

E7 means you get cheaper overnight and are gouged somewhat during the day.
Cosy means the cheap periods are spread out during the 24 hour period, you a gouged a bit for the other times, and gouged a lot between 4-7pm.
If you also had battery storage to cover the peak period then perhaps maybe.

Designing and installing an entire heating system that relies on a certain tariff to make it cheap is a failure, as heating systems will be around for decades but electricity tariffs can be changed or discontinued at a moments notice.

 

[endecotp]

E7 is somewhat cheaper overnight, but the day rate is significantly more.

I used to think that, but when a friend checked she found that the day rate from her supplier (sorry I forget which, but it was one of the major ones) was essentially the same on E7 and their regular tariff. In her case it was worth having E7 just to run the washing machine overnight. That was a couple of years ago, and she doesn't have a smart meter.

Re the original question - do you know what the neighbours do?

 

[EFLImpudence]

But the idea is that "if you're willing to compromise, you can save"

Or "charge you more if you don't" - or can't.

 

[danlightbulb]

Hot water heating is mostly irrelevant in terms of control - if the cylinder is a modern well insulated one, the difference between leaving it on all the time and switching on/off is minimal. Modern cylinders will retain the hot water for a day or more.
If it's an old poorly insulated one, spend the money on a new cylinder rather than fancy controls.

Ah ok thanks. It's a modern mains pressure factory insulated thing, fed as I said by two separate elements each on their own fused spur. So a timer/programmer here is not worth anything on the EPC? The hot water system was rated 'very poor' on the last EPC carried out, I was led to believe fitting a programmer would improve that.

However if you are looking at renting, this is not a viable option, as you will need an EPC for the property and if it's been fitted with non-standard or home made type controls, those won't be on the assessors software and will be rated poorly

Ok so if we fit electric heaters with integrated stat/programmer/smart app functionality is this recognised by the EPC?

Correct.
E7 is somewhat cheaper overnight, but the day rate is significantly more.
Modern storage heaters have the same disadvantages as old ones - only of use if you want to heat the building all day, every day. In the past plenty of people did. Today not so much

I agree, let's rule out E7 here. Not worth retrofitting these days if not pre-existing. I need another option to help the EPC process but also to improve the heating system overall for future tenants.


Re tariffs. I can't rely on tariffs like Cosy being available forever, or that a future tenant would even want them. So I'm focussed on fitting a reasonable heating system into the flat given the constraints that I cannot change (no gas, 3rd floor apartment, heat pump or solar not an option).