Controlling multiple electric heaters centrally

[robinbanks]

it's a buildings regs requirement, isn't it?

No. The regulations don't mandate a heating system must be installed, they refer more to energy efficiency. Approved document part L deals with conservation of fuel and power and sets out recommendations for how potential heating systems may meet regulation, but there are many buildings in this country that don't have anything one would recognise as a formal heating system, and they meet regulation (and it doesn't mean they are cold either e.g. passivhauses)

It sounds convincing, but you can't actually believe any of it.

"Guy who has successfully managed to keep his wife's name out of all public information for entire duration of marriage asks AI to name his wife and is so gleefully excited it can't do it, he writes an entire newspaper article about it citing it as conclusive proof AI sucks"

Give me a break

no gas, 3rd floor apartment, heat pump or solar not an option

How many of the other residents also have complaint with the "freeholder would never agree to" aspect of this?
There are legal resolutions to that if sufficient percentage want to see change

 

[danlightbulb]

How many of the other residents also have complaint with the "freeholder would never agree to" aspect of this?
There are legal resolutions to that if sufficient percentage want to see change

Having a battle like that is way out of scope and would take years probably.


I've had a look around and there is one model - Dimplex QMRF range - which can be connected via a single electricity feed. The charge up timing is controlled via settings on the device. It appears that these units are available for selection on the EPC software, so they would count, provided a suitable off peak whole-house tariff is available from the supplier.

But we're still talking £1000 per unit plus installation and I would need two just for the size of the main living area in the apartment. Each one would need a new radial from the CU.

Then any cost savings still rely on being able to get an off peak tariff.

Would still need to rely on supplemental heating for other areas of the flat, and probably keep the current infrared heaters to act as boost heating.

Would have to discuss with EPC assessor I guess to confirm it's acceptable, but still not sure it's worth the outlay, given the reliance on tariff choice/availability.

 

[blup]

Run some new circuits from the CU

 

[danlightbulb]

Run some new circuits from the CU

Yes it could be done. But as I keep saying this flat is leasehold - we would probably need permission to run new cables because that would involve lifting the floorboards which counts as structural interference.

I'm not saying this is impossible, it's whether it's economic given the minimal savings and comfort improvements from storage heaters.

 

[blup]

Yes it could be done. But as I keep saying this flat is leasehold - we would probably need permission to run new cables because that would involve lifting the floorboards which counts as structural interference.

I'm not saying this is impossible, it's whether it's economic given the minimal savings and comfort improvements from storage heaters.

How long is the lease?

 

[danlightbulb]

How long is the lease?

Dont know exactly, 100 years or something. Why?

The factory building was built approx 1870 and converted to apartments around 2007. It's grade II listed, three floors in total. There is a central courtyard and each apartment comes off this around the outside. The electricity meters are all located together in a central room on the ground floor at one end of the building, from where cabling goes to each apartment presumably via some central service trunking/route. No gas supply. Windows are large - metal frames but double glazed. Third floor apartments are open into the pitched roof of the building, so my partners living room is easily 6m high to the apex of the roof.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The factory building was built approx 1870 and converted to apartments around 2007. It's grade II listed, three floors in total.

Ridiculous, that no centralised heating system was included, in the design.

 

[JohnW2]

No. The regulations don't mandate a heating system must be installed, they refer more to energy efficiency. Approved document part L deals with conservation of fuel and power and sets out recommendations for how potential heating systems may meet regulation ...

Indeed - but, of course, Approved Doc L is not "regulations" (let alone "mandated regulations"), but merely 'guidance# - and, as with virtually all parts of the Building Regs, the actual regulations (Part L of the Building Regs) are vague in the extreme, relying almost totally on a requirement that "reasonable provision shall be made" to achieve various stated aims - opinions about which will undoubtedly vary considerably! As you are presumably aware, all 'the regulations' actually say (i.e. all they 'mandate') is .....

L1. Reasonable provision shall be made for the conservation of fuel and power in buildings by—

(a) limiting heat gains and losses—​

(i) through thermal elements and other parts of the building fabric; and
(ii) from pipes, ducts and vessels used for space heating, space cooling and hot water services;​

(b) providing fixed building services which—​

(i) are energy efficient to a reasonable standard;
(ii) have effective controls; and
(iii) are commissioned by testing and adjusting as necessary to ensure they use no more fuel and power than is reasonable in the circumstances.​

I am however a little confused. As you (and the regulations) say, it is all meant to be about energy/fuel efficiency. However, maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression that many people (particularly the occupants of domestic dwellings) think of it in terms of 'cost efficiency' - and on that basis I would imagine that even a very 'inefficient' gas-fuelled system would probably win hands down in comparison with a 'very efficient' electrical one, wouldn't it?

 

[JohnW2]

Ridiculous, that no centralised heating system was included, in the design.

Maybe, but if that is the situation, then that is the situation!

 

[blup]

Dont know exactly, 100 years or something. Why?

I dont think taking up a floorboard or even re wiring the house would be prevented under a lease that long, its not like a weekly tenancy, and not structural IMO

The factory building was built approx 1870 and converted to apartments around 2007. It's grade II listed, three floors in total. There is a central courtyard and each apartment comes off this around the outside. The electricity meters are all located together in a central room on the ground floor at one end of the building, from where cabling goes to each apartment presumably via some central service trunking/route. No gas supply. Windows are large - metal frames but double glazed. Third floor apartments are open into the pitched roof of the building, so my partners living room is easily 6m high to the apex of the roof.

You have to be careful with listed building but again chasing walls and lifting floorboards shouldn't be a problem if appropriately reinstated.

 

[Why Not Indeed]

I'm not saying this is impossible, it's whether it's economic

What do you actually want at the end of this and what are you willing to compromise on?

You seem confident that the sensible suggestions [ie, excluding the ones that come from people who don't understand the practicalities of leasehold living] won't give you a reasonable EPC. So are you happy to just not bother at all if it won't improve the EPC, or what?

 

[danlightbulb]

Ridiculous, that no centralised heating system was included, in the design.

I completely agree. It's a lovely building, lovely apartment, very unique. I can see why she bought it. But would have been a great opportunity for an efficient centralised heating system, or including solar on the vast roof space. Thing is, it's not even mandatory nowadays so what can you do. Will cost more in the long run.

What do you actually want at the end of this and what are you willing to compromise on?

You seem confident that the sensible suggestions [ie, excluding the ones that come from people who don't understand the practicalities of leasehold living] won't give you a reasonable EPC. So are you happy to just not bother at all if it won't improve the EPC, or what?

There's a few conflicting needs.

One is to put in a system that meets current EPC minimum requirements for letting, which I believe is band E. The current heater panels, by virtue of being on 3 pin plugs and having no programmer/thermostat, don't even comply with band E at the moment.

Second is to have a heating system that is actually fair to the tenant. I.e useable, safe, efficient as can be with electric and will not make their heating bills explode.

Third is to think about the future (2030) requirement for EPC grade C, which will be very difficult or expensive to achieve for this apartment.


I was initially hoping to use the existing panels and wire into some sort of centralised thermostat control, but it seems this isn't common and any bespoke solution won't meet EPC grade so it's out.

Storage heaters not ideal either. High cost to install and with no existing off peak supply/switching, needs a specific type of programmable heater and compatible tariff, and compliant EPC assessor. Might not even make the flat comfortable or cheaper in terms of heating.

So bit stuck really. Might just have to use some independent panel heaters with integrated programmers that a previous poster identified. Won't give much advantage in terms of EPC. Then hold fire on any more investment until more is known closer to 2030.

 

[endecotp]

EPC minimum requirements for letting, which I believe is band E.

Third is to think about the future (2030) requirement for EPC grade C

Check if those apply to listed buildings.

(I've no idea about the rental rules, but in other contexts listed buildings get some lee way.)

 

[JohnW2]

Check if those apply to listed buildings. .... (I've no idea about the rental rules, but in other contexts listed buildings get some lee way.)

In general, it seems that the EPC rules (including the new 2030 ones) do apply to listed buildings. However, in the case of a listed building one can try to get an exemption from this requirement by successfully arguing that the changes required to achieved the required EPC rating ('C' in 2030) would "negatively impact upon the property" ("unacceptably alter the character or appearance") and it seems that to pursue such an attempt would quite probably require the commissioning of a "Heritage Impact Assessment" (which sounds potentially expensive!) - and I haven't got a clue as to how likely it is that an application for exemption would succeed.

In any event, although obviously important to the OP, listed buildings are relatively rare - but, in terms of 'the rest', I have to say that I somewhat struggle to see how, in practice, the '2030 changes' are actually going to 'work', particularly given that that date is pretty close. If I understand correctly, even if walls, windows, roofs and 'drafts' etc. are all 'OK', EPC-wise, any gas-fuelled heating system would rarely (if ever) allow the property to achieve the 'C' EPC rating, unless supplemented by solar panels (and probably batteries) - leaving a heat pump as the only other obvious way of achieving the 'C' (and I gather than a subsequent further tightening to 'B' is on the cards!) - options which I suspect would often involve costs exceeding the £10k 'cap' on required spending on improvements.

However, since it's not really possible (or, at least sensible) to try to 'partially install' solar panels, batteries, heat pumps (or. really double-glazing, if required) etc., I'm not sure what landlords are meant to do if the cost of achieving the 'C' would be beyond the 'cap', and their 'means' are limited. If it transpires that a lot of landlords simply 'cannot afford it', I can but presume that some tenants will get thrown out of their homes and that increasingly less property for rent would become available in the market?

 

[ericmark]

but there are many buildings in this country that don't have anything one would recognise as a formal heating system, and they meet regulation (and it doesn't mean they are cold either

Yes in Chester a shop I was working in, only had cooling, it was heated by the lighting. This was before the LED age.

Plug in solar panels and batteries, are at the moment being considered, but as it stands not legal to use in this country, can be used in Germany, the balcony solar kit it seems is becoming popular, but it does not help heating the home, as when we need heat, often no sun. I have looked at the balcony solar kits, clearly needs bidirectional RCBO fitted, but once one has the second MPAN number, can't see how the DNO would know if you did use them?

But, thinking about the 60s, and 70s as central heating came in, it was common for it to only provide background heat, we had open fires for the evening, we had no thermostats, drafts, etc. There is no reason not to have a mixture of inferred, storage, and panel heaters.

The inferred heater will raise the perceived heat by x°C, So having a steady background heat, allows the use of a thermostat, to keep the room those x°C below the comfort point, but how the heat the home is not the question, the question is how to get the EPC required, and the Royal commission or what ever it is called now, have always been able to counter what the LABC has asked for. So for a listed building, all the EPC requirements go out of the window with the heat. If the Royal commission says so.

However, I know listing can refer to just some aspects of the building, so for example where I can renew the staircase, but not relay the floor, sometimes they are just interested in what the building looks like from the outside. So window AC type heat pumps may not be permitted, but we are unaware of what will and will not be permitted. So it all become a little pointless.