Plug in solar

[denso13]

I disagree, still think its meaning is clear and straightforward. The electrical supply itself is not shared, there is only one, and it terminates in the flat.

You don't agree with that, I get it.

I find it highly unlikely that such a glaring error would get past all of the detailed stages of writing and proof reading for things like this. Not one of the contributing organisations have publicly commented on the obvious mistake. There were responses to the consultation that showed some thought that plug in solar wasn't safe, so it has its critics, yet not one of them has gone public on it either. Maybe they have commented in private and the Government will issue an amendment. Who knows.

 

[morqthana]

I disagree, still think its meaning is clear and straightforward.

It's not, it really really isn't.

What they intended may well be clear and straightforward, but what they actually wrote was incompetently meaningless nonsense.

The electrical supply itself is not shared, there is only one, and it terminates in the flat.

Not shared, eh.

So where does the electricity for the other part of the building come from?

You don't agree with that, I get it.

What I agree with is what words mean.

You don't get that nobody may choose to invent new meanings to suit their own purposes unless they specifically redefine them in their limited context.

I find it highly unlikely that such a glaring error would get past all of the detailed stages of writing and proof reading for things like this. Not one of the contributing organisations have publicly commented on the obvious mistake.

I don't find it at all unlikely. What about the glaring error of using (3 times) the term "qualified electrician" when there is no official, legal, meaning of that. They probably thought there was. But they were ignorant.

The device shall not be connected to damaged, degraded or non-compliant socket
outlets. Users shall be advised to seek inspection and assessment by a qualified
electrician if there are any doubt regarding the condition or suitability of the installation;

Why, oh why, did they not write "...assessment by person registered in respect of the installation of fixed low or extra-low voltage electrical installations in dwellings. by a UKAS accredited competent person scheme."?

Because they were incompetent and ignorant, and in their incompetence and ignorance they wrote twaddle.

Where connection of the product requires modifications to the final circuit of the
domestic installation, this shall be clearly stated and identified as work that can only be
performed by a qualified electrician, e.g. replacement of the overcurrent protection
device of the concerned electric circuit in accordance with BS 7671 Section 551.7.2 for
the connection of a plug-in solar device;

Really?

On what legal basis do they rely for the restraint of trade "work that can only be performed by a qualified electrician"? There is no prohibition anywhere, of anybody replacing an overcurrent device.

Can the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero really create new laws on the fly like this, in product specifications?

Or is that more twaddle written by someone incompetent and ignorant?


I also don't find it at all unlikely because the world is full of people like you who look at the wording of a rule/law/regulation/specification/standard, decide what you think is a reasonable belief of what was intended, and then view the wording through those glasses.

I'm not doing that. In the context of this discussion I DGAS what anybody involved in writing that standard intended. I'm looking at what they actually wrote.

 

[ericmark]

I think the debate is looking at the wrong options, G98 or not hardly matters, what matters is grid-tie, or EPS battery.

Yes

What about the glaring error of using (3 times) the term "qualified electrician" when there is no official, legal, meaning of that.

I wonder how I am classed? At least 55 years in the trade, hold a Fdeng degree, a list of exams passed, but I have never been a member of any of the schemes, I was a member of the IET before I retired, and registered with many organisations so would class my self as a non practicing electrical engineer/electrician. An industrial accident cut short my working for a living, where my lock was removed, and the equipment turned back on. It means I am now too slow, but would consider myself as a "qualified electrician".

If I wanted more solar, then I would be asking my son for help, he has a far better degree to me, but still not a member of any scheme. His knowledge of electronics far exceeds mine, and what we are looking at is not standard electrics, but electronics, and really being a scheme member does not mean someone has an understanding of electronics.

 

[denso13]

It's not, it really really isn't.

What they intended may well be clear and straightforward, but what they actually wrote was incompetently meaningless nonsense.

I disagree, as you said,

Some people do not agree that the world is roughly spherical.

Some people do not agree that the trails left at altitude by aircraft are just condensation from jet engine exhaust.

Some people do not agree that it was planes flying into them which caused the World Trade Center towers to collapse.

Some people do not agree that Apollo astronauts landed on the moon.

Not shared, eh.

Absolutely and demonstrably not. Look it up, it is something completely different to what you imagine it to be.

"A ‘looped’ electricity supply is where two (or more) properties share a single electricity service cable from the main network. These are typically found in older semi-detached or terraced houses. The electricity cable enters the first house, usually underground from the mains in the footpath or road outside. A second cable, the looped service, then runs from the meter in the first house to the meter in the second house."

Unlooping

www.enwl.co.uk

So where does the electricity for the other part of the building come from?

From the flat consumer unit, that doesn't make it an electrical supply. I have already given you a legal definition of an electrical supply, which you now choose to ignore and much up your own definitions.

What about the glaring error of using (3 times) the term "qualified electrician" when there is no official, legal, meaning of that.

I agree with what you said previously,

It depends on two things:

1) Does the law or regulation provide its own special definition of a word, or
2) Has there been a court case to rule on what the definition is.

If neither, then the word has its dictionary meaning. It cannot be otherwise.

Now you are objecting because some words are included that don't have an official, legal meaning. I asked you what the words qualified and electrician meant but you choose not answer.

"...assessment by person registered in respect of the installation of fixed low or extra-low voltage electrical installations in dwellings. by a UKAS accredited competent person scheme."?

Like this competent scheme member?

What Fully Qualified Really Means When Hiring Electricians in Cheshunt

Many homeowners search for the best electricians in Cheshunt and see the phrase “fully qualified” used frequently.

www.jjb-electrical.co.uk

"A fully qualified electrician understands BS7671"
"Qualified electricians know how to carry out correct electrical testing, not just basic checks."
"Fully qualified electricians are typically registered with recognised bodies and carry appropriate insurance."
"Qualified electricians are trained to find the root cause of electrical issues rather than applying temporary fixes."
"A properly qualified electrician will investigate thoroughly instead of simply resetting breakers or replacing accessories."
"Fully qualified electricians understand how to balance circuits safely and ensure systems can handle current and future use."
"If you are planning electrical work or want reassurance about your existing system, speaking to a fully qualified electrician is the safest step. "

Who also says, "Every job is certified, Part P compliant, and registered with your local authority." A scheme member plonker I'd say.

On what legal basis do they rely for the restraint of trade "work that can only be performed by a qualified electrician"? There is no prohibition anywhere, of anybody replacing an overcurrent device.

Can the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero really create new laws on the fly like this, in product specifications?

It's an instruction on the type of things that should be included in user/installations instructions for the DIY uninformed user. There are many other examples of instructions referring to a qualified electrician. It doesn't bother me.

I also don't find it at all unlikely because the world is full of people like you who look at the wording of a rule/law/regulation/specification/standard, decide what you think is a reasonable belief of what was intended, and then view the wording through those glasses.

I'm not doing that. In the context of this discussion I DGAS what anybody involved in writing that standard intended. I'm looking at what they actually wrote.

I could say the same thing below,

I also find it at all unlikely because the world is full of people like you who look at the wording of a rule/law/regulation/specification/standard, decide what you think is a reasonable belief of what was intended, and then view the wording through those glasses.

I'm not doing that. In the context of this discussion I DGAS what anybody involved in writing that standard intended. I'm looking at what they actually wrote.

 

[denso13]

what matters is grid-tie, or EPS battery

I think batteries will come, quite quickly, as part of plug in solar. I could of course be wrong.

 

[ericmark]

I think batteries will come, quite quickly, as part of plug in solar. I could of course be wrong.

I agree, which is why I will wait, as once there is a mass market the price will go down.

A fully qualified electrician

No such thing, most electricians will have an area of expertise. Be it how to program a PLC, how to repair an EV, how to work on high voltage, and the list goes on, an auto electrician is still can electrician, so is the guy who repairs your washing machine.

The EU made it hard, as we could not require an electrician to have qualifications which were unique to this country, with maybe the exception being BS 7671 which to show you can read the book, was an online exam in a collage, and that's all the exam did, it showed you could read the book.

So today electricians take exams to show they understand solar, or understand EVs, and so the word electrician covers a rather wide area, during my time, I retrained many times, be it working on a ship, or a tunnel, or a concrete batching plant, the basics were the same, but I have only ever worked with Hawk gas tight glands on ship building for example.

So we used to call domestic electricians "House Bashers" and they were looked on as being the lowest of the low, but at that time, most complex thing found in the home was the central heating, what made a good domestic electrician was speed.

This has changed over the years, but what we have found, is we now have more specialists, the heating engineer, etc. The last thing I would want to do, is work on a roof, I had to admit defeat with tower cranes, I could repair them OK, but climbing the open latticework was not something I could do.

The Falklands was the last job where we had a simple electrician, and it was not easy, when confronted with a photostat machine, and the boss says, you're an electrician fix it. Lucky the manual was very good.

My son now works on stuff I would not have a clue how to repair, I stopped at level 5, he is still studying not sure what level he is at now, but it is a whole different world, when they phone him at home, he boots the PC and tells someone how to repair the machine without going to the works. SCARDA is a whole different world. I did train to work on PLC's, but things have moved on, including drives, in my day the auto transformer starter for large motors was considered the latest technology, but the semiconductor has taken over.

How many domestic electricians could work on a solar inverter I don't know, but I would guess very few, in the main it is just swapping it for a new one. So for solar we are looking at something like this:-

As to the name of the certificate not a clue, my dad did a 7-year apprenticeship, mine was only 5 years, today even shorter, so something must be missed out.

 

[denso13]

No such thing, most electricians will have an area of expertise.

I agree, but that would mean that some members of approved competent person schemes don't know what they talking about. That isn't very reassuring.

 

[ericmark]

Competent person. A person who possesses sufficient technical knowledge, relevant practical skills and experience for the nature of the electrical work undertaken and is able at all times to prevent danger and, where appropriate, injury to him/herself and others.
Skilled person. A person with technical knowledge or sufficient experience to enable him/her to avoid dangers which electricity may create.
Instructed person. A person adequately advised or supervised by skilled persons to enable him/her to avoid dangers which electricity may create.
Ordinary person. A person who is neither a skilled person nor an instructed person.

The competent person was dropped, it was a regular question with the BS 7671 exam before 2008, and although dropped from the new editions, it is still in the language, being a scheme member has nothing to do with being competent. A bit like when a consumer unit manufacturer decided to call themselves FuseBox I know some makes do have fuse holder options for their CU, but oddly could not find one made by FuseBox.

 

[denso13]

being a scheme member has nothing to do with being competent.

They are called competent person schemes and if you are on one you'll go on the electrical competent persons register. But it has nothing to with being competent? Good grief, it's even worse than I thought.

 

[ericmark]

Good grief, it's even worse than I thought.

Yes it is nearly as bad as the trusted trader scams, you can get a guy who joined in 2005 when they started, and he knows very little, then a guy who has continued training and has a master’s degree, they tell him he can't join as he has not got an MVQ or what ever they are called.

The problem is if an electrician wants to move from commercial to domestic (not sure why anyone would want to) they don't just want him to pass an exam, they want him to do a 6 months block release course. So most electricians just ignore domestic, simply not worth jumping through the hoops. Specially as the wages are so poor.

In my day, when between proper jobs which paid a reasonable wage, we would do domestic as a fill in job, the Part P and the scams schemes resulted in proper electricians no longer doing domestic work.

 

[denso13]

proper electricians

What does that mean?

 

[denso13]

Yes it is nearly as bad as the trusted trader scams

I got an excellent tradesmen through an online quoting one. I still use him for other things.

 

[morqthana]

I disagree, as you said,

Some people do not agree that the world is roughly spherical.

Some people do not agree that the trails left at altitude by aircraft are just condensation from jet engine exhaust.

Some people do not agree that it was planes flying into them which caused the World Trade Center towers to collapse.

Some people do not agree that Apollo astronauts landed on the moon.

Well, I wouldn't have said that you disagreeing that they wrote nonsense was on a par with disagreeing that the world is roughly spherical, etc, but if you want to identify yourself as being on that level I can't stop you.

Absolutely and demonstrably not. Look it up, it is something completely different to what you imagine it to be.

1) Apart from in the phrase "shared upstream RCD", the spec does not contain the word "shared".

2) As I didn't redefine it, or reference any official definition, my use of the word "shared" can only be that of the everyday, dictionary meaning, and by that, two independent dwellings with one incoming DNO cable and one CU have to be sharing the supply, and the CU. Neither has, in the everyday, established, agreed, dictionary, definition of "own" (and no other definition maybe used, as the spec does not provide one) its

Instead of trying to interpret something on the basis of forcing it to mean what you want it to mean, try using normal language to read what it actually says.

My neighbour and I share the driveway between our two houses. Do we each have our own driveway? No.

If I lived in a flat in a block with communal grounds, would I have my own garden? No.

If I lived in a US-style apartment block with a shared laundry in the basement, would I have my own washer or dryer? No.

Even if you persist in trying to claim that only a looped supply counts as a shared one, neither of the dwellings in Eric's building has its own CU. It's functions are shared between the two dwellings.

"A ‘looped’ electricity supply is where two (or more) properties share a single electricity service cable from the main network. These are typically found in older semi-detached or terraced houses. The electricity cable enters the first house, usually underground from the mains in the footpath or road outside. A second cable, the looped service, then runs from the meter in the first house to the meter in the second house."

Unlooping

www.enwl.co.uk

Your huge problem there is assuming that a definition can be reversed and that because the definition of "looped electricity supply" is where two (or more) properties share a single electricity service cable from the main network", a shared supply necessarily has to be a looped one.

English does not work like that.

Eric's building has one DNO supply cable, one cutout, one meter, and one CU. All the facilities that that infrastructure provides are shared between two dwellings. Neither dwelling therefore has its own supply cable, its own cutout, its own meter, or its own CU.

[ASIDE] - I have a looped supply, so does that mean that neither I nor my neighbour may have plug-in solar? - [/ASIDE]

From the flat consumer unit, that doesn't make it an electrical supply. I have already given you a legal definition of an electrical supply, which you now choose to ignore and much up your own definitions.

I'm making up nothing. That will be you.

I'm not arguing with the definition of "supply".

I'm trying to get you to see that using the meaning that everybody understands, as in

"Do you have your own driveway?" "Do you have your own garden?" "Do you have your own car?" "Do you have your own bedroom"

neither of Eric's dwelling has its own electricity supply and consumer unit.

I agree with what you said previously,

Now you are objecting because some words are included that don't have an official, legal meaning. I asked you what the words qualified and electrician meant but you choose not answer.

I've always objected to that where those words are used in a pre- or proscription. I chose not to answer your question because it was pointless - the answer would be to repeat that there is no official, legal, meaning of "qualified electrician". The two words cannot be separated as they are combined in a term which the idiots who wrote the spec think defines a particular class of persons.

Like this competent scheme member?

What Fully Qualified Really Means When Hiring Electricians in Cheshunt

Many homeowners search for the best electricians in Cheshunt and see the phrase “fully qualified” used frequently.

www.jjb-electrical.co.uk

"A fully qualified electrician understands BS7671"
"Qualified electricians know how to carry out correct electrical testing, not just basic checks."
"Fully qualified electricians are typically registered with recognised bodies and carry appropriate insurance."
"Qualified electricians are trained to find the root cause of electrical issues rather than applying temporary fixes."
"A properly qualified electrician will investigate thoroughly instead of simply resetting breakers or replacing accessories."
"Fully qualified electricians understand how to balance circuits safely and ensure systems can handle current and future use."
"If you are planning electrical work or want reassurance about your existing system, speaking to a fully qualified electrician is the safest step. "

Who also says, "Every job is certified, Part P compliant, and registered with your local authority." A scheme member plonker I'd say.

The fact that some people who are competent scheme members are plonkers does not invalidate the suggestion that there was a better way to define a particular class of persons than saying "qualified electrician".

It's an instruction on the type of things that should be included in user/installations instructions for the DIY uninformed user. There are many other examples of instructions referring to a qualified electrician. It doesn't bother me.

It really should do if it is part of an official standard.

I could say the same thing below,

You seem to be failing to spot a major difference between you and I.

I don't WANT the spec to mean, or not mean, anything in particular, and I am reading it through the lens of "what does what they have written mean?".

You do want it to mean something in particular and therefore you are reading it through the lens of "how should this be interpreted in order to make it fit with what I want it to mean?".

 

[denso13]

I don't WANT the spec to mean, or not mean, anything in particular,

Same here, I happen to think the meaning is clear, and you don't (or you think it is clear but means something else).

I think the flat has its own supply, it isn't shared with anyone before it gets to the meter or CU. The house is fed from circuits from the CU, which doesn't meet the legal definition of an electrical supply, which I already gave you. The electrical supply, by legal definition, stops where the DNO equipment ends.

My neighbour and I share the driveway between our two houses. Do we each have our own driveway? No.

If I lived in a flat in a block with communal grounds, would I have my own garden? No.

If I lived in a US-style apartment block with a shared laundry in the basement, would I have my own washer or dryer? No.

I agree, but you are slipping in the word share. If something is shared, then of course it is shared. If something isn't shared (one electrical supply), then of course it isn't shared. I really, honestly, don't see the confusion.

 

[denso13]

You do want it to mean something in particular and therefore you are reading it through the lens of "how should this be interpreted in order to make it fit with what I want it to mean?".

That could be a justifiable belief on your part, if I wanted to install one and was bending the rules to fit. But I have no interest in fitting one, I won't buy one in their present form. I have no interest in the phrase meaning one thing over another. That is just another misguided belief of yours that you are trying to impose on others.