63 flats in block, mains insufficient, is a pump the answer?

Dammit said:

An update, plumber visited this morning - we have 3 bar of pressure, but 4.5 litres/minute. Plumber suspects that the non-functioning stop-cock is actually partially closed, and that resolving that would see a sudden increase in flow.

However, the managing agent is refusing permission to turn the water off, which is required to change the dead stop-cock, and to fix a leak in the pipe (currently fixed using a bit of bicycle inner tube and a jubilee clamp).

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Most stopcocks can just have the headgear swapped out making it a quick and simple job....no need for cutting out the old one etc.
Why are you bothering to ask the feckless managing agent...just get on and do it How can they "refuse"...it's essential maintainance...you have no water.
Us in the trade certainly don't have the time or inclination to deal with hopeless agents each time we have to shut off the water.

I have to shut off the water to all 64 flats, by lifting the manhole cover that's in the middle of the drive. My plausible deniability is low, if I'm found standing in said manhole with a spanner in my hand.

I've asked for permission to do this, and been rebuffed. The plumber who came out this morning said that the length of pipe (he called it barrel) was too short to freeze, given the proximity of the bit of pipe he'd have to work on, potentially with heat, so that's a no-go.

Dammit said:

Our 1930's block doesn't have any pumps so rely totally on mains pressure to deliver water to the 63 flats.

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Hi,tbh when the properties were built they would have an adequate water supply for their intended use of that era.

In flats sorry London apartments Fast forward to 2019 and some occupiers want combination boilers and or high pressure water multi body jet rain showers and bum washers,the existing installed water carcass distribution system may just be suitable for a 1 sink potable tap water and other roof tank supplied outlets to elson/fortic cylinder type,wc cisterns.Low gravity flow.

Seen it so many times in London up and down the Edgware road and in apartments around st johns wood,the blocks can be upgraded to a higher mains water supply via new connections to the water main and some internal alterations.

Everything is possible just spend some £'s x a lot

Dammit said:

I have to shut off the water to all 64 flats, by lifting the manhole cover that's in the middle of the drive. My plausible deniability is low, if I'm found standing in said manhole with a spanner in my hand.

I've asked for permission to do this, and been rebuffed. The plumber who came out this morning said that the length of pipe (he called it barrel) was too short to freeze, given the proximity of the bit of pipe he'd have to work on, potentially with heat, so that's a no-go.

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Crazy situation. I can empathise with your plight as I once owned a flat that owned the freehold and I was one of the 4 directors.

It does really sound like your managing agents are difficult and un co-operative to say the least, lets say your property "developed" a leak and your plumber who was handily available had to isolate the supply as your stop valve is faulty. Luckily he was on site to fix and to hand to replace the stop cock and damaged pipework on your property and limiting damage to other flats below...Even though he had to access the communal stop cock for a few minutes without express MA permission.

Although: One caveat given the likelihood of time since it has been used, will it operate properly. Have a plan B!

The other way is to play it by the book and I would suggest writing to the directors and explain your problem and the need to perform maintenance on your flat which is being refused. I would also include an item at the next AGM about seeking alternative managing agents. But having looked at that for our property 10 years ago or back I know how hard it can be to find reputable and experienced Managing Agents. Ours was a firm of chartered surveyor's who at least understood building issues and were fairly pragmatic. On the downside they were expensive and always wanted to seek detailed tenders on the smallest piece of work.

Edit: Just read some of your previous posts. You already have a pipe leak that requires proper repair and a faulty stop cock to replace. BTW 4.5L is below the limit for most appliances to operate within e.g. washing machines, dishwashers, combi boilers. They may be working presently in your home but i) the agents do not know that and ii) you must be close to having problems with that.

Dammit said:

However, the managing agent is refusing permission to turn the water off,

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What right has the managing agent to do this? You employ him, so you give the orders.

Dammit said:

I have to shut off the water to all 64 flats, by lifting the manhole cover that's in the middle of the drive. My plausible deniability is low, if I'm found standing in said manhole with a spanner in my hand.

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So the directors send a letter to each flat owner telling them what work needs to be done and why, and the date/time the work will be done. If other flats have the same problem, they will be pleased that the job is being done, even if it inconveniences them for an hour or so.

Dammit said:

An update, plumber visited this morning - we have 3 bar of pressure, but 4.5 litres/minute. Plumber suspects that the non-functioning stop-cock is actually partially closed, and that resolving that would see a sudden increase in flow.

However, the managing agent is refusing permission to turn the water off, which is required to change the dead stop-cock, and to fix a leak in the pipe (currently fixed using a bit of bicycle inner tube and a jubilee clamp).

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Is that the main stoptap into the block or the stoptap into your flat? And is the leak in your flat or at the main (that repair is very likely the reason the stoptap is almost closed)

Managing agent is being an idiot.
1 play emergency card (pipe joint split, your stoptap wouldn't so had to do the main.
or 2 as someone else suggested (sort a date/time, leaflet all flats with permission of directors). Next AGM propose refreshing arrangements with managing agent such that he winds his neck in over routine maintenance and reserves his NO face for genuine issues (bicycles in hallways, massive satellite disges etc)

There's (in theory, more on this to come) one main stop-cock for the whole block, then each flat has it's own stop-cock somewhere inside the premises.

In my flat there's a steel pipe that comes out of the floor-slab, turns through 90 degrees and there's a brass stop-cock, rotating the handle of the tap doesn't affect the flow of water through this stop-cock so I had a plumber freeze the supply and add a new stop-cock when we moved in, some 9 years ago.

In summer this year the copper running from the old, buggered stop-cock to the new, functioning one sprang a leak - it's just before the functioning stop-cock.

I asked the plumber to come in today to freeze the supply, remove the bust stop-cock, and the section of pipe with a hole in it, leaving me with steel pipe>fresh copper pipe>functioning stop-cock.

Sadly he deemed it to be too dangerous to freeze the steel as the risk of the ice puck being forced out was too high, and the other flats would be rather inconvenienced if we'd then turned their water off (plus we're not allowed).

He did test the pressure, which is where we get the 3 bar figure from, so that was helpful.

The managing agents view on this is that nothing is leaking right now, so they don't care. I've pointed out that if my inner-tube/jubilee clip repair fails the only way to stop my flat from flooding downstairs would be to turn the water off to every flat, but I don't expect that to make much impact.

Contact the block insurance company and get their take on it...they will be paying for the damage if you flood downstairs, I can't see how they would accept the risk as it stands.
Are you sure there's not a stopcock in the groundfloor flat or stairwell to isolate your stairwell?
Not far from you I was once a leaseholder under the Dulwich Estate (a truly incompetent freeholder).
I found our main stopcocks feeding the stairwells were in the back of some of the garages...just by chance I spotted the pipework in another owners garage.

Of the three plumbers who I've used over the past few years every one of them is convinced that there will be stop-cocks for the vertical distribution of mains water on the roof - there's no basement of cellar, so the water pipes are run horizontally around the flat roof. However, the managing agent flatly denies that there are stop-cocks up there, and refuses to allow anyone to look.

I'd not thought of the insurance angle, the buildings insurance is done via the managing agent, contents is done by each flat.

Is it a locked hatch? Can you remove it?

Hey! I stopped at management agents refusal...

I had similar issue in Belsize Park beginning of this year... Main stopcock leaking in basement flat... Notifying would have been a nightmare... I turned leak into a flood and put a poster up on the front door of the block and in the communal entrance hall... "sorry for inconvenience: emergency plumber at work!"... Sometimes better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission!

I am having difficulty understanding your agents objections, is it that the other owners would complain about being inconvenienced while the water was turned off? If so what would happen if the water company had to disconnect it in the street for eg. a burst main?

Developments: the managing agent has agreed to turn the water off. There is no charge for them to do this, but they will charge me £214.50 for them to warn my neighbours that the water is going off for 30 minutes. I have said that I'll do it myself - I can print 62 notes for less than £214.50, but they're refusing to let me do that "due to the legalities".

This is annoying - naked greed from the managing agent.

What are the legalities here - if I turn the water off myself what trouble could I get into?

Otherwise I'll wait for the rubber patch repair on the main, pre-stop cock, to fail and turn every flat off without the £214.50 fee I guess.

I had a job last year where I had to turn the water off to 50 flats, I turned off the mains, fitted a new stopcock in the ground floor flat then turned on the mains again. 30 minutes later there was a knock at the door with a few neighbours complaining of a burst pipe on the 4th floor leaking into the flats below. What happened was there was a water filter fitted in a flat on the 4th floor and when I turned on the mains again, the filter leaked. (I did remove the filter for the owner and make safe) They tried to blame me, I laughed and said 'no chance, that was a faulty fitting that just gave way'. I then quickly finished my job and left, never heard anything afterwards.

So pay the £214.50 or pay the plumber an extra £200 and let him do it a 2am.


Andy