Is this a good job?

Thomas_Jefferson · 27 Jul 2020

Hi All,

Long time lurker on this website, which I've found very instructive. Some opinions on my window fitting experience would be very welcome:

I chose some windows and contacted a local FENSA registered fitter with good checkatrade reviews to fit them. They helped measure up to make sure I got it right and reviewed the spec of the windows. We agreed a price to fit the windows, along with architraves and window boards I also supplied.

The windows were made, delivered and fitted.

When I saw the job (I wasn't on site during fitting) I let the fitter know I wasn't happy with the job.

The window fitter tells me that how the windows have been fitted is perfectly normal and correct.

Please see pictures.

I think that the windows should be flush with the wall, the architrave should bridge the joint between the window and wall and the window board should extend back the the wall. They just out c.60mm into the room, the architrave is fully on the window, and the window boards have been cut so they don't extend all the way back to the wall.

I'm told I should have made these requirements known at the outset, as my expectations for the job are unusual. I thought this positioning was common knowledge.

The only thing we agree on is that moving them at this stage would do more harm than good.

Opinions from the forum welcome - am I being excessively picky with how I wanted them positioned, or is this a half baked job? What should I do now to get them looking good?

Thanks,

Bankrupt · 27 Jul 2020

Looks like an absolute disaster.......

matlob · 28 Jul 2020

How someone can get something so wrong baffles me.

You are not being picky and your expectations are not unusual. The window is though!

Take a shot from outside if you can

freddiemercurystwin · 28 Jul 2020

Oh dear, I read as far as Checkatrade and didn't really need to read the rest. I've never seen anything quite like that before. How much of the window frame is actually in the wall? And I would disagree with you both, that window absolutely needs reffiting.

Notch7 · 28 Jul 2020

Were the previous windows single glazed box sashes?

If you look externally are the windows pushed up against the back of the external brick skin and therefore can't be made flush internally.

If that's the case, then in terms of window position, the installer is correct and you've been badly advised by the salesmen or surveyor.

In terms of trimming up, it's both wrong and unfinished.

When windows are fitted so they project into the room, the window board has have the central section cut back and the rebate re formed.

The architrave needs a timber batten behind it to fill the gap to the wall.

Also if a new window replaces an original with a weight box, it makes sense to use a wider architrave to cover the gap.

Personally I think this is a case of a job being badly sold, incorrectly surveyed and when the installer turns up he just fits what he's got, knowing it's wrong but does because he is self employed and wants to get his money for the job.

Thomas_Jefferson · 28 Jul 2020

Thanks for the comments so far.

matlob said:
...Take a shot from outside if you can

Attached. They do look fine from the outside. One neighbour has even popped round to say so, but was less impressed by what's going on inside.

freddiemercurystwin said:
...How much of the window frame is actually in the wall? And I would disagree with you both, that window absolutely needs reffiting.

I'd say that they are about 9 inches thick, with 2.5 inside the room, so 6.5 in the wall. I'm considering plasterboarding the wall to bring it forward to the window. Clearly it reduces the size of the rooms and leaves the architraves where they are, but re-fitting windows sounds like a risky way forward. Welcome your and other views on the options.

Notch7 said:
Were the previous windows single glazed box sashes?

If you look externally are the windows pushed up against the back of the external brick skin and therefore can't be made flush internally.

I think it's the render on the outside of the house that stops the window advancing into the opening sufficiently - please let me know what you make of the external pictures. If that's the case I would have thought that this would need to be cut back to get the window into the right place? I'd be more happy being told I had some external making good to do, rather than dealing with this disaster inside.

Notch7 said:
Were the previous windows single glazed box sashes?
Personally I think this is a case of a job being badly sold, incorrectly surveyed and when the installer turns up he just fits what he's got, knowing it's wrong but does because he is self employed and wants to get his money for the job.

The fitter did the surveying and measuring, and even contacted the manufacturer (as he's their recommended fitter) to try to get a better trade discount that I was being offered through the builder's merchant. I would agree with this if I'd just ordered something and thrown it at a fitter to make the best of. It frustrates me that he denies that there is any issue, and that seems to be getting in the way of finding a solution.

Thanks all,

mrrusty · 28 Jul 2020

I think that the windows should be flush with the wall,

I suspect you have solid 9" walls. With full-width DGU you have to go up to 56mm sashes (from typically 44mm) which means the minimum depth of the box sash frame is around 6". If the reveal is one brick wide then you can't hide the whole box-sash frame within the wall. The original single glazed sash windows would have been narrower and would have fitted inside a single brick width+plaster. If it is an origonal 11" wall (i.e. with a small cavity, then a DG sash window can be fitted flush)

As others have said, the internals are a disaster. Whoever the window company is, just tell them unless they come round and sort it out you will post a link to the pics in on-line reviews!

It can be tidied up. The cill board does need to be back to the wall, and a wider architrave and judicious use of filler strips will neaten the whole job up. Shouldn't be your job to sort this.

As an aside, and it's a shame you have already decorated and fitted coving, because as this is an external wall, you could have used insulation backed plasterboard to bring the wall out flush with the window frame, and given yourself better insulation at the same time.

Notch7 · 28 Jul 2020

Its hard to see what going on. Clearly the previous upvc window was a casement with a 60mm or 70mm profile. It looks like it may have been fitted inside the original box -it was quite a bit narrower than the width between the render reveals

Its hard to see if the new window is sitting behind just the render or the external skin too. you could check by measuring the width of the new window frame and the width between the render externally (the render itself will be about 15mm thick each side).

its possible the lintel causes an issue too.

visually the new window is in the right place externally -moving it forward would make it look not quite so traditional. traditionally box sashes were set behind the outside skin so would be 100mm back.

Thomas_Jefferson said:
The fitter did the surveying and measuring, and even contacted the manufacturer (as he's their recommended fitter)

He is a muppet then -he should have discussed with you the issues regarding window profile depth and given you options at the survey time, not fitted it and left you with a problem.

Notch7 · 28 Jul 2020

I hate to add to it, but it looks to me as though the new window has been mismeasured -it should've been wider -traditionally it would be typical to only see about 25mm or so of the outer lining.

Diver Fred · 28 Jul 2020

I'll agree with Notch7 - it certainly looks like the window has been mismeasured.
There certainly should not be large amounts of filler foam around a properly sized window for the reveal. In fact which has the larger reveal measurement - inside or outside?

What style of window was in place before?

Have you contacted the manufacturer? They ought to be interested at the very least

mrrusty · 28 Jul 2020

There certainly should not be large amounts of filler foam around a properly sized window for the reveal

That's all assuming the reveals are the same size....On my recent project I found the edwardian builders were not so accurate and the reveal width between inner and outer skin was all over the place. I suspect what has happened here is that the original box-sash reveals have been filled. These look like spring sashes with narrower frames, so I expect they have been just tucked in behind the render, hence the wider width of outer lining showing. TBH, from outside I think they look OK, so the challenge is now to make the inside look nice. Not much point going too heavy handed and saying reject the lot, or you just get a big fight, and in any case it doesn't warrant that. It's a few ££ of material and half a days work to make it look decent.

If it was me, I'd just get some wider architrave and then put some filler pieces between the back of the arch and the wall. New cill board, nice and neat and it will look fine. As I say, I would have maybe brought the wall out as well with some insulated PB, but may be too late for that.

freddiemercurystwin · 28 Jul 2020

I've never heard of anyone making a wall thicker because the window was installed with its ass hanging out of the reveal.

mrrusty · 28 Jul 2020

freddiemercurystwin said:
I've never heard of anyone making a wall thicker because the window was installed with its ass hanging out of the reveal.

Ha! That wasn't really the point!. The point is if you are increasing thermal efficiency by installing DG sashes, then if at the same time you are installing insulated PB it happens to make the wall thicker which helps with the thicker frames necessary to accommodate DG. Not suggesting OP does this now, just planting the thought for anyone else reading the thread in the future.

crank39 · 28 Jul 2020

The way i see it, its been measured to fit behind the outer skin, nothing wrong there as that how the original box was, but the surveyor didn't account for, didn't know, didn't ask, didn't even think about the profile depth of the new window, don't think surveying is his forte. Personally I'd leave to window as it is and dryline the wall now, you can't push the window forward 60mm now anyway without taking a stihl saw to the back of the outer skin

Thomas_Jefferson · 29 Jul 2020

Very helpful discussions above - thanks for that.

So to summarise, swapping casements for sashes was always likely to result in it hanging out inside, as (depth wise) they are looking about right from the outside. The discussion above makes it sound like the fitter should have made this known at survey stage, and discussed modifying the wall internally or externally to make it a properly finished job.

Further, we think the windows might have been mismeasured due to the amount of foam, and the architrave and window board fitting is a 'disaster'.

Then the question is, what's this job worth (fit four windows, window boards and architraves, no painting or making good)?

The fitter insists it's a perfect job and full payment is due, whereas discussion above indicates there are some serious shortcomings. Who would pay in full, and others, what would you do?

I have contacted my previous plasterer to plasterboard out the walls to bring them into line.

Thanks,

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Is this a good job?

Thomas_Jefferson

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