Are building standards optional?

Odds said:

How is somebody to know what specifications to ask for if they're not equipped to be specific in framing the relevant questions?

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If someone does not know then they should get professional advice. The problem is, most people will rely on a builder for advice despite the inherent conflict of interest.

Building is not like most other service transactions in that there are many options and regulations involved, and routes to acheive the end result. Hence the customer needs to be guided more so than with other purchase decisions.

Even when someone gets some plans drawn for their building works, more often than not they are led to believe that those plans are good enough to procure a builder, and the building inspector will check the quality of the work. But the plans are invariably not good enough and the inspections not thorough enough, and it's a massive false sense of security.

^woody^ said:

If someone does not know then they should get professional advice. The problem is, most people will rely on a builder for advice despite the inherent conflict of interest.

Building is not like most other service transactions in that there are many options and regulations involved, and routes to acheive the end result. Hence the customer needs to be guided more so than with other purchase decisions.

Even when someone gets some plans drawn for their building works, more often than not they are led to believe that those plans are good enough to procure a builder, and the building inspector will check the quality of the work. But the plans are invariably not good enough and the inspections not thorough enough, and it's a massive false sense of security.

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Then how is your average house owner to know which questions to ask?
It should be in the builders interest to offer sufficient advice without requiring a prompt from people who know nothing of the building trade - sadly, we all know of a builder who'll twist it to their advantage for a fast buck at the homeowners expense.
Building regulations are there for a reason and your best friend is a good lawyer when it all goes t!ts up.

AkiraDIY said:

If I use 2000mm of flex, I've disregarded the regs. Short of drawing it in crayon, I don't think that particular reg, for example, can be any clearer on how to comply. So if the regs are mandatory, how can a reg like that be legally ignored?

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Flexipipe is not a sensible use and I would avoid using it.

This type of pipe has a significant effect on reducing the ability of the fan to be effective and I'd be wondering how long it will be before water starts coming out of the vent in the bathroom OR the water blocking the flexipipe

Murdochcat said:

Flexipipe is not a sensible use and I would avoid using it.

This type of pipe has a significant effect on reducing the ability of the fan to be effective and I'd be wondering how long it will be before water starts coming out of the vent in the bathroom OR the water blocking the flexipipe

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I know it's not sensible. The problem is the builder doesn't or won't admit he got caught cutting corners.

I'm almost positive they didn't expect me to go up and check on their work. Access to the loft space in tenements is usually quite difficult, via a high level hatch in the stairwell, it's rare for there to be an easy access hatch inside the flat too (put in by previous owner).

^woody^ said:

If someone does not know then they should get professional advice. The problem is, most people will rely on a builder for advice despite the inherent conflict of interest.

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The problem is builders also ignore what you tell them cause they always think they know best or don't expect to be caught. I requested the rigid pipe to be replaced with rigid pipe, not 2/3 rigid, 1/3 flex. They won't even accept that they changed the terms of the contract despite literally changing the invoice from "fit uPVC pipe" to "fit uPVC pipe and flexible ducting"

I'll be in the loft this weekend so I'll see how much water has collected in the sag, I expect there to be a fair bit. Can't get clearer evidence than that to say their "work" is not fit for purpose.

Although if there's no water and the tripping electrics was due to the dying of the blue fan, puts me in a bit of a strange spot. The install is still a joke but I can't demonstrate it's causing issues. It's a system in the builders favour. No issues from sloppy work now, doesn't mean it'll be the same in the near future. But by that point, it's even harder to get them to fix/admit a mistake or get any sort of cash back.

Test it! The weather is freezing outside at the moment! Just get those pans boiling and see if it condenses

mrrusty said:

Test it! The weather is freezing outside at the moment! Just get those pans boiling and see if it condenses

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Will do, I'll get a couple pans to a rolling boil for an hour or two this weekend before I go up.

Odds said:

Then how is your average house owner to know which questions to ask?
It should be in the builders interest to offer sufficient advice without requiring a prompt from people who know nothing of the building trade - sadly, we all know of a builder who'll twist it to their advantage for a fast buck at the homeowners expense.
Building regulations are there for a reason and your best friend is a good lawyer when it all goes t!ts up.

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A builder can "advise" to fit a plastic, aluminium or rigid fan duct and he can "advise" to fit a condensation trap or not, or insulate the duct or not, and he could "advise" to fit a different fan in a different place, and none of this advice would be wrong.

He could also "advise" that all this work will cost different amounts, and unless the builder is a charity, he will be out to maximise his income .... and that too is not wrong.

So there you are. There is the advice. You pick. You decide, you've got the advice.

Building regulations are there for a reason. To ensure public safety. Nothing else. Safety, not quality, not suitability, not longevity, not cost, not practicality, not anything else just safety. The fan duct this helpful builder advised on is not a safety issue.

AkiraDIY said:

The problem is builders also ignore what you tell them cause they always think they know best or don't expect to be caught

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I don't have that problem. And my clients don't have that problem.

The client is paying the builder. That's the control. If a client is not able to enforce his requirements then perhaps he should employ someone to do that function?

AkiraDIY said:

I can see no reason, nor was it agreed, for them to do the job the way they did.

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there is no reason why that cant be done in rigid pipe -if it needs supporting then a batten can be screwed between joist and rafter with noggins as needed -its really no big deal- I expect you could do it yourself

they are probably competent contractors, but no doubt they didnt have the right materials on site and wanted to get away so bodged it and then tried to bullsh1t their way out of it when you questioned it. The reality is tradesmen are always under pressure to get on with the next job so have little interest in coming back.

If they had held their hands up and said "yeah, I must admit we rushed it and its not right, we are so tied up on a new job but will get there 2 weeks or whatever" -then you mightve been a bit miffed but it wouldve been sorted out and no falling out.

^woody^ said:

The client is paying the builder. That's the control. If a client is not able to enforce his requirements

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the problem with construction is the client often doesnt know what the requirements are -or wouldnt know when they arent being met.

A classic example is a cold roof lacking ventilation + badly done VCL -the client doesnt know until his roof is dripping in condensation.

^woody^ said:

A builder can "advise" to fit a plastic, aluminium or rigid fan duct and he can "advise" to fit a condensation trap or not, or insulate the duct or not, and he could "advise" to fit a different fan in a different place, and none of this advice would be wrong.

He could also "advise" that all this work will cost different amounts, and unless the builder is a charity, he will be out to maximise his income .... and that too is not wrong.

So there you are. There is the advice. You pick. You decide, you've got the advice.

Building regulations are there for a reason. To ensure public safety. Nothing else. Safety, not quality, not suitability, not longevity, not cost, not practicality, not anything else just safety. The fan duct this helpful builder advised on is not a safety issue.

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And that, dear reader, is why it's always advisable to get a second, or a third, opinion in discussions on a major project.

I have seen and investigated lots of bodges like this in my time as a roofer, people seem to think they can be flippant with extractors but you can't Tell them to do one and you'll find a professional.

Duct need to exit roof with 500mm to avoid condensation issues , or move fan to roof exit so it pulls air thru .

^woody^ said:

I don't have that problem. And my clients don't have that problem.

The client is paying the builder. That's the control. If a client is not able to enforce his requirements then perhaps he should employ someone to do that function?

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Not all builders are reputable and finding a good one these days is getting harder and harder. When you ask on Facebook, most traders recommend themselves while pretending to be a client, or the client has no idea if the work is good but recommend them anyway cause they were cheap or talk a good game.

Withholding payment isn't really a control though. It's not going to get the builder to admit they've messed up and they're certainly not going to come back and do a better job when you had to hold them to ransom before they'd come back. Like this mob, they're not even accepting they changed the terms of the contract after the fact, nevermind admitting they botched the job. And if the bill is big enough, they can easily pass that onto a debt collector, which has potentially major long-term consequences.

The only option I have if things continue this way, is a small claims court. To submit the paperwork is a £120 fee, plus whatever independent expert report, plus time off work, plus whatever else is needed. And max expenses claimable if you win is £150 as this claim is under £3,000. Considering the bill is around £400, is it really worth all that time and effort?
Probably not and the builder is likely counting on that.

Odds said:

And that, dear reader, is why it's always advisable to get a second, or a third, opinion in discussions on a major project.

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It's not a major project thankfully, if it wasn't for the roof work, I would have done this myself. As the saying goes, want something done right, do it yourself.
I just don't want to pay full price for a job not finished or completed as agreed. Getting them to admit that is a challenge and they managed to get me doubting myself.

foxhole said:

Duct need to exit roof with 500mm to avoid condensation issues , or move fan to roof exit so it pulls air thru .

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The duct is vertical and goes through a cold loft space. Humid kitchen air is going to condense on the cold surface; pushing/pulling the air through isn't going to change that.

Just how bad the condensation is I plan to verify this weekend.

Notch7 said:

the problem with construction is the client often doesnt know what the requirements are -or wouldnt know when they arent being met.

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Yes, but what does someone need to do when they don't know about something? Find out or get the advice from someone who does.

Building is not like any other purchase (buying an appliance, getting the car fixed, say) or even getting a medical diagnosis, where you can either rely on the other person, or get a second opinion from another shop, mechanic or doctor.
There are too many options, variables and standards with building work.

Customers can't inherently rely on builders to do what the client wants or needs, and to the required standards - like they can with the above. Builders build, but don't necessarily know why they are building in a particular way - ie they not designers or standards experts.

How many builders know BS 8000 for instance, or even that it exists? It's a basic standard for work on site.

Yes there are good builders who do good work and know the standards. But I would suggest that building work is unique, and the customer needs an independent intermediary to safeguard their interests. Otherwise the risk is so great, the outcome is more reliant in pure luck and anything else.

A customer is basically saying to a builder "build me an extension, I don't know what it should be like or how it should be built, just crack on". And the builder says "Yes, OK, leave it with me and I'll send you my invoice". What could possibly go wrong?