Are building standards optional?

AkiraDIY said:

Not all builders are reputable and finding a good one these days is getting harder and harder. When you ask on Facebook, most traders recommend themselves while pretending to be a client, or the client has no idea if the work is good but recommend them anyway cause they were cheap or talk a good game.

Withholding payment isn't really a control though. It's not going to get the builder to admit they've messed up and they're certainly not going to come back and do a better job when you had to hold them to ransom before they'd come back. Like this mob, they're not even accepting they changed the terms of the contract after the fact, nevermind admitting they botched the job. And if the bill is big enough, they can easily pass that onto a debt collector, which has potentially major long-term consequences.

The only option I have if things continue this way, is a small claims court. To submit the paperwork is a £120 fee, plus whatever independent expert report, plus time off work, plus whatever else is needed. And max expenses claimable if you win is £150 as this claim is under £3,000. Considering the bill is around £400, is it really worth all that time and effort?
Probably not and the builder is likely counting on that.

It's not a major project thankfully, if it wasn't for the roof work, I would have done this myself. As the saying goes, want something done right, do it yourself.
I just don't want to pay full price for a job not finished or completed as agreed. Getting them to admit that is a challenge and they managed to get me doubting myself.


The duct is vertical and goes through a cold loft space. Humid kitchen air is going to condense on the cold surface; pushing/pulling the air through isn't going to change that.

Just how bad the condensation is I plan to verify this weekend.

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But it’s not going to run back into fan and blow it .

^woody^ said:

Yes, but what does someone need to do when they don't know about something? Find out or get the advice from someone who does.

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What is someone doing when they seek a professional builder? They’re getting advice from someone who is supposed to be a professional and therefore knows what they’re doing.

^woody^ said:

Building is not like any other purchase (buying an appliance, getting the car fixed, say) or even getting a medical diagnosis, where you can either rely on the other person, or get a second opinion from another shop, mechanic or doctor.
There are too many options, variables and standards with building work.

Customers can't inherently rely on builders to do what the client wants or needs, and to the required standards - like they can with the above. Builders build, but don't necessarily know why they are building in a particular way - ie they not designers or standards experts.

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I disagree and think you contradict yourself. A customer is forced to inherently rely on a builder. They’re supposed to be the professional and you need to inherently rely on them to do what they say and are capable of doing so.

A builder should most certainly know the standards, otherwise how can they call their work professional/fit for purpose if they don’t know what the professional standard is? How can they call themselves a professional when they don’t know the regulations and standards governing their trade?

No competent builder should be relying on the Customer to teach them the how and why of their trade. Especially if you’re claiming that there are too many options/ variables/ standards for a second opinion. In that case, who do you suggest going to for advice on how to do a job other than from the person going to do it?

A builder that just builds but doesn't know why they're doing it that way is an amateur/ cowboy playing professional. If they don’t know why they’re doing it that way, they won’t know when NOT to do it that way either. And they won't like being told how they should be doing it either.

^woody^ said:

A customer is basically saying to a builder "build me an extension, I don't know what it should be like or how it should be built, just crack on". And the builder says "Yes, OK, leave it with me and I'll send you my invoice". What could possibly go wrong?

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Following that analogy, what can you possibly do other than get professionally qualified and do it yourself?

You can get multiple professionals in to design and quote, but you say building work is not a purchase where you can rely on another person or get a second opinion. Assuming all the professionals say the same thing, the quality of their chat doesn’t reflect the quality of their work. How does a novice know they’re going to do what they say, do it properly, use quality materials, not have the apprentice do it unsupervised, not have a stinking hangover and forget to put half the screws in, etc?

The novice must trust the professional to do their job unless they’re going to stand over their shoulder and judge their every move with an unqualified eye. I find there’s too common a tendency to focus on the Customer for not having the knowledge of a professional when things go wrong, with only the value of hindsight demonstrating the professional’s workmanship was not up to par, while detracting from the fact it was an alleged professional that screwed up the job in the first place.

A customer SHOULD be able to say to a builder “crack on” and expect it to be done as agreed and to a professional standard. In your analogy, cracking on should entail the builder designing (or requesting from the customer) how it should look, agreeing the work with the customer beforehand, KNOWING how it should be done as the professional without the customer or anyone else telling them, and executing as agreed.
If they can’t do it, they should tell the customer they’re missing information or aren’t up to the task. That’s what I think the process should be, and the fault really is on building regs being too useless to prevent/prosecute rogue traders, give the consumer sufficient protections, and people assigning fault on clueless customers being taken advantage of and not the rogue traders at the centre of it all.

In my case, the builder said one thing, cut corners using unsuitable materials, botched the job, and refuses to admit it. Only recourse I have is a time consuming and financially counterproductive small claims process; the outcome of which the builder can effectively ignore with little repercussions.

foxhole said:

But it’s not going to run back into fan and blow it .

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true, but it doesn't solve the root cause that condensation is forming. It just means it's dripping into your kitchen instead of the fan, which still isn't proper or ideal

AkiraDIY said:

What is someone doing when they seek a professional builder? They’re getting advice from someone who is supposed to be a professional and therefore knows what they’re doing.

I disagree and think you contradict yourself. A customer is forced to inherently rely on a builder. They’re supposed to be the professional and you need to inherently rely on them to do what they say and are capable of doing so.

A builder should most certainly know the standards, otherwise how can they call their work professional/fit for purpose if they don’t know what the professional standard is? How can they call themselves a professional when they don’t know the regulations and standards governing their trade?

No competent builder should be relying on the Customer to teach them the how and why of their trade. Especially if you’re claiming that there are too many options/ variables/ standards for a second opinion. In that case, who do you suggest going to for advice on how to do a job other than from the person going to do it?

A builder that just builds but doesn't know why they're doing it that way is an amateur/ cowboy playing professional. If they don’t know why they’re doing it that way, they won’t know when NOT to do it that way either. And they won't like being told how they should be doing it either.

Following that analogy, what can you possibly do other than get professionally qualified and do it yourself?

You can get multiple professionals in to design and quote, but you say building work is not a purchase where you can rely on another person or get a second opinion. Assuming all the professionals say the same thing, the quality of their chat doesn’t reflect the quality of their work. How does a novice know they’re going to do what they say, do it properly, use quality materials, not have the apprentice do it unsupervised, not have a stinking hangover and forget to put half the screws in, etc?

The novice must trust the professional to do their job unless they’re going to stand over their shoulder and judge their every move with an unqualified eye. I find there’s too common a tendency to focus on the Customer for not having the knowledge of a professional when things go wrong, with only the value of hindsight demonstrating the professional’s workmanship was not up to par, while detracting from the fact it was an alleged professional that screwed up the job in the first place.

A customer SHOULD be able to say to a builder “crack on” and expect it to be done as agreed and to a professional standard. In your analogy, cracking on should entail the builder designing (or requesting from the customer) how it should look, agreeing the work with the customer beforehand, KNOWING how it should be done as the professional without the customer or anyone else telling them, and executing as agreed.
If they can’t do it, they should tell the customer they’re missing information or aren’t up to the task. That’s what I think the process should be, and the fault really is on building regs being too useless to prevent/prosecute rogue traders, give the consumer sufficient protections, and people assigning fault on clueless customers being taken advantage of and not the rogue traders at the centre of it all.

In my case, the builder said one thing, cut corners using unsuitable materials, botched the job, and refuses to admit it. Only recourse I have is a time consuming and financially counterproductive small claims process; the outcome of which the builder can effectively ignore with little repercussions.


true, but it doesn't solve the root cause that condensation is forming. It just means it's dripping into your kitchen instead of the fan, which still isn't proper or ideal

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You use insulated hose .

AkiraDIY said:

A customer is forced to inherently rely on a builder. They’re supposed to be the professional and you need to inherently rely on them to do what they say and are capable of doing so.

Click to expand...

AkiraDIY said:

In my case, the builder said one thing, cut corners using unsuitable materials, botched the job, and refuses to admit it

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"Hallelujah. I have exorcised the demon."

Are you seeing it now?