13amp sockets on lighting circuits.

[winston1]

SUNRAY wrote:

"When I know it's a 6A circuit, I work within that capacity. However it appears winston1 insists on loading 13A sockets with higher power devices even though he knows the installation is not designed for it.

As far as I can make out, it's because he doesn't have the inteligence to work within the designed parameters."


Read more: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/...g-socket-off-this.578396/page-5#ixzz783TAPPms

Of course I'm intelligent enough to work within designed parameters. BUT how is one to know what the designed parameters are? If you are in a strange building how is one to know if the 13 amp socket you want to use is wired to the lighting circuit?

 

[winston1]

JohnW2 wrote:
"Having said that, in this particular context he is probably doing no worse than you often do - 'worrying' about (and hence describing it as a 'bad practice') a theoretical hazard of extremely low probability. I'm sure it's extremely unlikely that someone would come to serious harm as a result of being 'plunged into darkness' in a roof space as a result of plugging some high power device into a 13A socket on a 6A lighting circuit - but, as you might yourself argue in relation to comparable situations, it's not actually impossible that such harm could arise."

Being plunged into darkness in a roof space is frightening and dangerous. Most roof spaces have no boards, just bare joists. In total darkness how do you negotiate them?

 

[oldbutnotdead]

I'm not a fan of power sockets on lighting circuits- trouble is with lots of modern ket on low current wall warts a 13A socket is often a very convenient way to power things.
The odd one I've done I've labelled (fed from upstairs lighting circuit, max load xA).
Aren't we lucky nowadays most of us having in our pockets a splendid multifunctional device, nearly all of which have a torch as one of those functions. Lone working is always unwise, lone working without your phone in your pocket just piles on the potential for a small oops to become a disaster.

 

[bernardgreen]

Most roof spaces have no boards, just bare joists. In total darkness how do you negotiate them?

Did you read my post on the other thread.
Freeze motionless until the eyes become accustomed to the reduced light level before negotiating the joists.

BUT how is one to know what the designed parameters are? If you are in a strange building how is one to know if the 13 amp socket you want to use is wired to the lighting circuit?

By a label on it if the design was good. Or you try the tool in the socket in way that safety is not compromised if the lights do go out. But the sensible way for power in a loft is to use an extension lead from a socket that is known to be on a ring final with a suitably rated over current protection device.

 

[ericmark]

One can buy an extension lead rated 5 amp with a 13 amp plug and socket, yes there is likely a 5 amp fuse in the plug, but I know even with a 5 amp fuse one can normally get away with boiling an auto knock off 3 kW kettle without blowing the fuse.

One could fit a 3 amp fuse, using a double socket box easy enough to fuse but although you could fuse, there is not real point, as likely the MCB would trip first.

So the main point is

314 DIVISION OF INSTALLATION
314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
(i) avoid hazards and minimize inconvenience in the event of a fault
(ii) facilitate safe inspection, testing and maintenance (see also Section 537)
(iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit
(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor currents produced by equipment in normal operation
(v) mitigate the effects of electromagnetic interferences (EMI)
(vi) prevent the indirect energizing of a circuit intended to be isolated.

This is the regulation which is broken by fitting a socket to the lighting circuit, so what is the danger? The danger is over load could cause the trip to open and plunge one into darkness. However if that is really a worry, then can't have lights on the same RCD as sockets as well, and we all know that is often done.

So if one is going to say no sockets on a lighting circuit, then also must say lighting circuits need dedicated RCD protection, this may be @winston1 view, I felt after having lights and sockets in my old house on same RCD that with this house wanted all RCBO's, but when fitted in last house, single width RCBO's were not available, so could not have used a consumer unit with RCBO's even if I had wanted to.

So we are told BS7671 is not retrospective, so if we could have a single RCD back in 1990 why should we not also have a single one now? Well OK in the main a single RCD was 100 mA not 30 mA, but it all boils down to a risk assessment.

So we look at the risk, be it so a wallmart transformer can be powered from lighting so it switches on/off with main light switch, or powering an aerial amplifier in the loft, we look at the risk, so yes if the aerial amplifier is unplugged and a drill plugged in, it could cause lights in loft to fail, but my loft is floored, so no real danger. If not floored then less likely anyone would plug in a drill.

We also must look at the alternative, my parents had an aerial amplifier on their mast head, and that was not plugged into the chimney breast, it was powered up the coax, direct from the TV, so clearly same can be done in the loft.

 

[SUNRAY]

SUNRAY wrote:

As far as I can make out, it's because he doesn't have the inteligence to work within the designed parameters."

Of course I'm intelligent enough to work within designed parameters.

You're obviously not.

 

[bernardgreen]

↑

If you're saying you have some agreement with winston1 then i need to start panicking..

Don't panic, it is less than 1% of agreement.

I have two loft spaces but electrics in any permanent form are banned from them as they are thatched roofs.

 

[JohnW2]

Being plunged into darkness in a roof space is frightening and dangerous. Most roof spaces have no boards, just bare joists. In total darkness how do you negotiate them?

By reaching for the torch (or even mobile phone) in one's pocket, and then illuminating the situation.

Given that light bulbs die (or are killed!), that power cuts happen and that the lighting circuit could be 'tripped' by something happening outside of the loft, anyone who puts themselves into that (as you say, 'potentially dangerous') situation in a roofspace/loft without some source of light in their pocket is, in my opinion, just plain daft - far dafter than those who wire 13A sockets on 6A circuits!

 

[pcaouolte]

I have a 13amp socket on a lighting circuit in my loft. A TV aerial amplifier is permanently plugged into it. The lighting circuit is protected by a 6amp mcb.

This arrangement has been in place for more than 20 years. In that time the house has not burned down, it has not caused any accidents and no-one has plugged a welder or any other high current appliance into it, so the mcb has not tripped. It's not a real problem even if it might be a theoretical problem.

 

[winston1]

You're obviously not.

YOU ARE BEING RUDE AND INSULTING AGAIN.

 

[JohnW2]

I'm not a fan of power sockets on lighting circuits- trouble is with lots of modern ket on low current wall warts a 13A socket is often a very convenient way to power things. The odd one I've done I've labelled (fed from upstairs lighting circuit, max load xA).

Indeed - I always label such sockets appropriately. As I have illustrated before, in the case of things permanently connected via wall warts (which is the most common reason for needing 13A sockets in a loft/roofspace), I sometimes do something like this - which ought to stop all but the most determined plugging in their vacuum cleaner! ..

Aren't we lucky nowadays most of us having in our pockets a splendid multifunctional device, nearly all of which have a torch as one of those functions. Lone working is always unwise, lone working without your phone in your pocket just piles on the potential for a small oops to become a disaster.

Quite so. I even make sure I have a phone in my pocket when I climb up any significant ladder!

Kind Regards, John

 

[BS3036]

If you are in a strange building how is one to know if the 13 amp socket you want to use is wired to the lighting circuit?

The regulations required such sockets to be labeled. If you ignore the label you deserve what you get.

 

[winston1]

[

The regulations required such sockets to be labeled. If you ignore the label you deserve what you get.

Require or required. Either way John's socket above is not labelled, as I suspect most are not.

 

[BS3036]

Require or required. Either way John's socket above is not labelled, as I suspect most are not.

"Require"" (it was a typo). What you say is not relevant. A socket on a lighting circuit is permitted, if it makes design sense to do that, provided it is labeled.

 

[JohnW2]

Require or required. Either way John's socket above is not labelled, as I suspect most are not.

It is ('labelled'). The labelling is underneath the wall-wart, so anyone daft enough to cut the cable ties (or remove the faceplate screws) and remove the wall-wart will then see the label/'warning' right where they might be tempted to plug something else in!