1900's farmhouse gable end to re-render help please

[johnmac1979]

Hi all.

I have a gable end of my newly purchased two storEy farmhouse to re-render and want to know what options are available to me....

So far I have removed the old blown render on the two storey gable end.

The render which I removed was 'applied' badly.... About ten years ago, so I'm gonna try it myself.

I'm going to let the wall dry out and then put in a chemical DPC.

The wall is red brick... I'd call it engineering brick.... But that's possibly not the real na e for it!?! The bottom six foot of mortar is terrible... It crumbles like dry mud!

Once I've gouged it the mortar... What next????

I'll fix the DPC... Then do I need to repoint the brick work?? Or can that be filled as I render??

Next... What's my rendering options??? Looking through this site so far I've seen....

Sand and cement two coat renders, fibreglass mesh applied first... Or chicken wire???? Or something called Krender????

What's the easiest to use product for DIY... And least likely to go wrong... And what's the rough costs for each method??

As much opinion as possible please folks!!!

 

[roughcaster]

If i were you, and lacking the knowledge, i wouldn't even consider doing the job myself. There's so much involved, i'd get someone in to do it, or at least help you out with it,, honestly,,, sorry.

 

[Micilin]

I'd agree with RC - a gable end will be a bit much to take on yourself with any hope of making a decent job.

 

[johnmac1979]

Thanks guys.

Haven't explained myself very well.

Failed to mention I have rendered concrete block before and I have a retired builder to assist.

Whilst we both have experience of rendering... Him far more so than me... We aren't aware of the 'new' methods such as fibreglass mesh and Krend and the like.....

Cheers for any info.

 

[Micilin]

Right - if you are happy rendering it , go for it.

The fibre glass mesh is used over areas that may crack ( around windows and doors, over dissimilar backgrounds (where blocks meet concrete etc) what are tied in and won't need a movement joint, or over timber (with building paper protecting the timber first) .

It is more flexible, easier to fix and cheaper than stainless steel eml or rib lath for external rendering. It also takes less render to cover, which is a big advantage on an area like a gable end that might need some mesh.

Some builders (Bovis) that I have worked for mesh the entire area, and not just the stress points. However, it is not magic, and if enough of a crack opens , it will crack the render.

If it is an old building, you should be able to see any existing cracks and decide on the measures depending on where the movement is.

Krend or other monocouche renders would only be worth having a go on a small area, not a gable end as there is a bit much to go wrong and it would be hard to talk you through it. Ideally it is a sprayed on one coat application, butwith care can be done by hand.

Basically- having prepped everything, plastic beads in matching colour etc ,

First coat applied flat, with mesh bedded into this coat, perhaps 8 mm thick and allowing for another 8mm coat behind beads/profiles or the plane of your finished render. Coat area top to bottom.

Make sure first coat flat and cut back , apply second coat flat 3-5 mm over beads and close in as you go. You cannot go back and fill in once you have flattened an area or you will see that area a different shade. You must keep all joints fresh, or you will see them. Any area that you cover with a different mix, or after about ten minutes depending on conditions will be a different shade when you scratch it up.

When all coated, and you can no longer press your thumb into it, use a 'H frame' (looks like a small rsj made from aluminium, 1200 long, 75 wide) to open it up and flatten, then go over it with a scratch pad (which is basically a joist joining plate with a handle on it to look like a float)

If you cut into the bottom coat, you will have a different colour and differnt texture that you cannot fix.

If you go back over one area twice, you will have a different shade. If you miss even a small area, it will show as a different colour or texture.

So start from top, work to bottom. Don't leave any circular or discernible pattern as you go. When all gone over with teh scratch pad, go back and brush dust of with soft broom head. This is vital to get the dust off so rain does not wash it and discolour, and gives you a chance to see any small misses that you may have to cut with a nail at this stage. Brush evenly, or you will see a different shade.(every time you touch this, you change the colour of it)

Clean scaffold as you go.


That's a run down for you - have a go on a small area but a gable end I think will cause you more grief

 

[Richard C]

Watch you don’t contravene Building Regs.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/public/buildingwork/projects/workcommonexternalwalls/
Even more importantly, don’t let LABC catch you doing it; could land you with a nasty shock & bill to match; it’s happened!

 

[Micilin]

Watch you don’t contravene Building Regs.
http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/public/buildingwork/projects/workcommonexternalwalls/
Even more importantly, don’t let LABC catch you doing it; could land you with a nasty shock & bill to match; it’s happened!

Good advice!!!!!

 

[johnmac1979]

Labc??? Who or what is that

 

[johnmac1979]

Building control... Got ya!

 

[external]

as youve got to upgrade the insulation pin the gable with some kingspans mesh with hp12,its a full mesh and double cross mesh at stress points,then whatever top coat you fancy,sounds hard? no! even a skimmer could do it.
edit to say building control can sit on your shoulder if they want!

 

[johnmac1979]

I know everyone must have taken a huge intake of breath when I said I was planning on rendering the gable end of my house with little rendering experience.....

The main reason I'm doing it is that firstly I can't find a decent builder... Everyone seems to be crap at rendering these days. I've had three quotes... All between £4500 and £5900. I've then went to see their most recent work, and with all three the houses they have done are either blown, cracked or both.... All be it still attached to the wall for now. One was also painted a week after application, when I thought you should wait four months????

Furthermore, the 'builders' who did the render I've just hacked off did the render in December 1999. They didn't repoint, nor did they put in a DPC, which was needed. They did it in 48hrs covering it in plastic to keep the frost off?!?! The render was unsurprisingly blown and cracked within a few months.... But never the less, it stayed on the wall until this winter, then started falling off with bad frosts.

So my thinking is why spend thousands on a job that may well be substandard.... When I can do it myself substandardly?!?!?!

If you see the house.... It doesn't need a perfect finish. I have access to scaffolding, forklift, mixer and all the tools for free. I have two employees to help labour and a retired builder/roofer for assistance.

I rekon I can do the whole job for about £400.... And do it better than the last builders did. If I get ten years out it I'd be delighted...... If any longer, even better. And if it didn't work... I've only spent a few hundred on it.

I have several bits of wall to 'practice' on and a low wAll around my garden that also needs done first.... So hopefully that'll improve my technique... But time will tell!!

Thanks for the feedback so far... And I take my chances concerning building control etc.

Question is... Do I sound totally mad?????

 

[external]

step back and take a look mate ,but if you do do it for £400 your a better man than me,allthough the prices you have been quoted may be a bit steep but a good renderer will want £300 a day with a lab,you need a good knowledge of backgrounds and mix strength ,do you have those?
edit to say ,ask the roughcaster i think hes from your way.

 

[joe-90]

Well I fully back the original poster. He's got intelligence, experienced help and a forklift on his side. He's finding out how to approach it before he starts so I have no doubts whatsoever that he'll do a very good job. Probably better than a builder who is working against the clock. Don't forget the photo when it's all done.

 

[Micilin]

I

Question is... Do I sound totally mad?????

No, if you are going into it with your eyes open.

If you mesh and seal as external says, or mesh and scratch coat with render (with a waterproofer) you will give yourself enough time to coat it. Use your base boat/scratch coat to get teh wall as flat as possible, or at leat ease out high spots and fill hollows.

IF you are not worried about the finish, you can close it in with the trowel and sponge it as you go along. Ruling off , rubbing up and sponging properly might find you struggling for time


It will not be flat, and will look bumpy as hell, especially in any kind of cutting light but if it is only yourself you are worried about pleasing , and not expecting to get any job offers from it, then why not.

Make sure all loose substrate is removed/repaired but you sould not worry about pointing as long as you have a coat of stuff on before you mesh, and you are going on to dust free background . Hose and broom for that will do.

You still need to sort out DPC, and make sure the roof is throwing the water off properly

 

[johnmac1979]

Gentlemen Micilin and Joe90...

I appreciate all your feedback.

I will go ahead and try to do the job myself. As I said before I have some experienced assistance.... And me!

I know that doing the jobmyself sounds a bit daft.... But the fact is that having stumped up all the money for the mortgage, Money is tight, given The fact the financial crisis meant all our savings had to go down as a deposit!

I am therefore keen to do all I can to the house myself! I know I might be biting off more than I can chew... But hopefully with the right guidance from my retiredbuilder and all you helpful people I might get it right.

I know might is a big maybe... But if I do the job myself and it goes wrong, I only have myself to blame! Having seen the 'work' the last 'pro's' did on the house... And the previous work of the builders that have tendered.... I'm reluctant to borrow for them to do a bad job... Call me a sceptic!

I still have a few questions.... To achieve the perfect job!

What are the is the ideal mix... Sand cement etc for both scratch and finish coat?

What kind of sand is best?

How long after rendering can I paint?

If I use a fibreglass mesh... Do I apply before or after the scratch coat? Or both?

I know this will cast more doubt on my ability.... But I have mixed answers already and just want as many opinions as possible!

As I said before, I plan to practice first on a garden wall made of the same brick that is a metre high... And plan to use each section of wall to perfect the correct mix.... And skills required

as for the finish.... I'm not too fussed... The house is old and wonky inside... And we like it!!! So if it's a bit wonky outside, it'll be in keeping!!

and hopefully painting will hide the worst!