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2 separate single storey side extensions allowed under permitted development on each side of house

Discussion in 'Building Regulations and Planning Permission' started by Boydo, 19 Jul 2020.

  1. Boydo

    Boydo

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    Q: If my house has an existing side extension which is half the width of the original house, can i further extend my house (single storey side extension) under permitted development (PD) to a different side original wall on the opposite side of the house, i.e. can i apply the "half the width of the original house" rule twice against different sides of my house.
    .
    -Attached example plans - house is semi detached, original house 1900s and previous ext. under planning permission complete in the 80s
    -Both side extensions would be on different sides of the house and from different original walls (therefore not failing the "enlargement" of an existing extension rule).
    -I've read the Govt Technical Guidance (Permitted development rights for householders), Section A, (j)/iii on page 22
    -------Reference to extension is in the singular (apart from the enlargement clause - which i believe i wouldn't fail) and therefore can i assume the rule applies per extension
    .
    It feels like the rules are up for interpretation, is there anything solid or historical examples where a similar project has gained a Lawful Development Certificate (LDC)? If the council rejected the LCD, would an appeal win?
    .
    Many Thanks in advance!
     

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  3. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

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    Correct and your proposed rear/side/infill extension would be considered PD.

    Edit: Unless it’s a mistake on your drawing/sketch, are you actually semi-detached? If so, that rear extension would be limited to 3m without having to go down the NCS.
     
    Last edited: 19 Jul 2020
  4. Boydo

    Boydo

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    Hi, yes the house is Semi detached, thanks for your reply as it has now unearthed a new question:
    .
    -Are the rules for Side extension and Rear extension inclusive of one another - i.e. PD would only allow for 3m from the rear of the house along what is a 4m side return (leaving 1m short)?
    -Unless i went for Prior approval of 6m but i'm guessing this would need the neighbours approval or if they object the 3m+ option would be a non starter?

    Glad to hear that PD is available twice for Side extensions and my "half the width of the original house" is not used up by the old extension before we bought.
     
  5. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

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    Ah ok. After I posted, I saw a very thin white line between yours and the neighbour hence why I then thought it may have been detached.

    The ‘normal’ PD rules would indeed only permit you to add on a 3m deep rear extension to that rear corner. So yes, the extension would stop short of that secondary rear wall.

    Prior Approval would invite the neighbours to comment. If they do and the comments made are valid, the Planning Officer would then review the comments in conjunction with proposals. The PO would have the final say.
     
  6. Boydo

    Boydo

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    Brilliant, Thanks @DevilDamo, great help and allows me to think over the options.

    One last question:
    -If i submit a Prior Approval and the neighbours do object to anything past the 3m allowed via PD, does this have any impact on my PD rights or do they always remain independent and I would be ok to proceed with the 3m regardless of the outcome of the Prior Approval.

    Next steps will be to:
    1) Spk to local planner about the options
    2) Submit Prior Approval for 3m+ / inform the neighbours and talk them through it all
    3) If not approved, continue with Lawful Dev Cert on the 3m

    Thanks
     
  7. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

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    Even though you can extend up to 3m via PD, if you do submit a PA application for anything bigger, the whole extension would be assessed and not just the additional part beyond 3m.

    If the PA application is refused, you can still utilise your ‘normal’ PD rights. It’s only on formal applications where LPA’s can withdraw or restrict PD rights. This is usually more common for development with the Green Belt.

    Your steps are correct. When you say local Planner, I assume you’re referring to an architect/technologist/technician/designer as the LPA would not normally provide advice on PD?

    Btw, does your neighbour have any windows in their small rear wall or side wall and if so, what rooms do those windows serve?
     
  8. Boydo

    Boydo

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    Hi @DevilDamo,

    Ive attached a detailed plan of the full picture and overall extension to put into context, originally the question was just about the side of the house as our architect is suggesting that the "half width of original house" is already used up by the previous extensions (on the left in black lines) and therefore cant extend out in between the houses under PD anymore.

    • Original house in Red border, with previous extensions in black - ALL of these are double storey
    • ALL proposed new extensions are single storey only
    • I understand that PA (Prior Approval) would also take into account the slim PD area but have kept them separate for visuals only
    • The neighbour has 2 windows in the courtyarded area, however, both those rooms are large extensions each and both have alternative large windows at either end - does this help?
    • Regarding the direct sunlight, ive checked today and at no point does the trellace fence along the boundary cast a shadow high enough that that covered either of their courtyard windows
    • -------The extension wall along the boundary would be no more that 2m and therefore no higher than the fence that sits there today (1.6m + 40cm trellace - NB: its our fence)
    • The aim would be to build the extension within our boundary and not straddling
    Regarding the "local planner", the council allows for "pre-application consultations" where the LPA have an open conversation with you about your proposal (to avoid going through the formal process only for it to have been rejected all along).

    Thanks again
     

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  9. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

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    The rear extension (green) cannot wrap around to join the infill extension (green/orange)... Permitted Development or Prior Approval and would therefore need formal Planning.

    If as you say the left hand side extension (dimensioned 2.4m) is two storey then any extension onto that... single or two storey would require formal Planning, which is what you’ve shown/indicated in red.
     
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  11. Boydo

    Boydo

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    I think i get it now, so we could take PA extension right up to the corner of the courtyard (as its over 3m, would need PA to take it the last 1m not covered by PD), but as soon as we go past the corner, the other central rear extension adds the 2 extensions together as a single enlargement and breaks all the rules!

    This stuff isnt easy, someone needs to build a visual planning calculator! *writes down idea in idea book...

    So just to make sure then, if we choose to try planning on the wraparound and it fails, we can always fall back to a stepped extension that doesnt breach the end of the courtyard and worse case only 3m under PD (if PA fails too).

    Thank you so much, you have been a great help!
     
  12. Boydo

    Boydo

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    As im a visual person, ive attached the general 3 levels available (appreciate its not boolean and PP can be adjusted etc.) as described in the previous post.

    Let me know if i have anything fundamentally wrong, but im hoping i get it now
     

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  13. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

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    PD is not always straight forward, which you have realised. What can make it more confusing is that even though most of the PD rules are stated in black and white, some LPA’s do interpret them slightly differently. Although I’ve only had this come up once before and it wasn’t soon after the PD rules changed.

    In your example, the large green part to the rear cannot connect to the extended part (in red) on the left as you’d then be using PD on something that isn’t original and would exceed the PD guidelines. If I was you, I’d forget about that rear left extension as not only does it add little floor area, but scuppers your plans for other PD extensions/alterations.
     
  14. Boydo

    Boydo

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    I get your point on the large green rear extension too now.

    Whats frustrating is that i would be able to do both the green areas WITHOUT the left red extension via PD and in theory, once that were complete, i would be able to apply and likely get permission (I am speculating...) to build the red extension retrospectively. I say likely only on the basis, it falls within the mirrored PP extension footprint of the adjoining neighbour and there is no neighbour on that side but a road. Is that worth a gamble?

    Is there no way the long term vision of the extension can be seen upfront by the LPA but the application/build of it done in one go. i.e. apply for PP for just the red box and carryout the works all together. Can you even go as far to ask the builders to build the red bit last ? :) This is why i think a pre-application with the LPA might sound out their thoughts on having the entire wraparound via PP or understand if its a non starter..
     
  15. DevilDamo

    DevilDamo

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    Builders what build what you tell them. They don’t want to or care about the PD or phasing side of things. The PD rules are there to help homeowners carry out minor alterations without PP. They would not relax the rules just because it saves you time or money. Something to note is that if you are looking to combine PD and PP, you should always look to build out and then substantially complete the PD works before applying for PP. This is again a more costly way of doing things, but those are the rules.

    Your best bet would be to just apply for PP and cover the whole lot in one go.
     
  16. Boydo

    Boydo

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    Further thinking, i believe my original drawings were misleading.

    Therefore if both original walls were removed by the time the new extension (green area) is built, the overall final extension would be an enlargement of the previous extension (left hand side of back room) as the room spans the width of the entire house, meaning that Permitted Development rules are not met. The only way to meet PD would be for either original wall to remain.

    Have i got this right?


    Trying to get a solution, im looking at the mitigation of turning the green extension are into a conservatory (i.e. mostly glass panels) as this wouldnt need planning permission.
     

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