21st Century or not!!!

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Good morning all,

I’m thinking of going WiFi control for my heating and just wondering which you would all recommend?

I currently have a digital thermostat in my hallway which was wired into the boiler using 3c+e.

I’m happy to spend a little bit extra to get all the features, if it’s worth it.

Many thanks.
 
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Bit more info needed please... what make/ model is your boiler? Do you have a hot water cylinder, and if you do, do you want app control of that as well? Are you likely to want to expand the system to individual radiator control in the future?
 
Bit more info needed please... what make/ model is your boiler? Do you have a hot water cylinder, and if you do, do you want app control of that as well? Are you likely to want to expand the system to individual radiator control in the future?

Hi muggles. Many thanks for your reply.

I’m on a combo-system. Worcester-Bosch boiler. Just finished extending the house so shouldn’t require anymore. I was thinking of individual control for rooms as the new rooms that are well insulated get really warm where as the hall way (1930s house) is always cold.
 
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In that case EvoHome is your friend :)

I’m I looking at the right thing?

£240 for just the control panel and then around £60 each for the radiator thermostats? 4 bed rooms and 4 rooms down stairs, that’s going to be expensive.
 
EvoHome will work, but EvoHome is OpenTherm and many Bosch boilers don't support OpenTherm so you may be better off with Wave which is Bosch's own system using the eBUS connection.

Modern boiler modulate that is the flame height alters, read the link, this is done with EvoHome to an extent by controlling the TRV with electronic heads, and the return water then controls the boiler, if the boiler was OpenTherm enabled then it would use what it calls a thermostat to modulate the boiler, but if not it simply turns boiler on/off so you have standby losses.

But I would first question why internet controlled? In theory with the electronic TRV heads I have fitted I can set phone so when within a set distance it will turn up the heating, however the time for the rooms to heat up mean in practice unless I work 4 hours away from home it will not really work. OK I can take out the phone and manually alter the temperature, but that defeats the whole idea of the automated control, and likely I will forget and get home to a cold house, so in the main I use simple times, even then the very cleaver anti hysteresis software means it takes ages to heat up, so I cheat and set hotter than required and have it turn down again when it has likely reached the heat I want.

So although I could alter the eTRV with phone, it is simply timed, so I could have got same for less than half the price without internet connection, and of course using internet the internet must work, and not only your house, because most of us don't have fixed IP addresses we use servers to relay the command, and without them it does not work.
 
So called smart heating devices are not really smart if they do not connect to other individual radiator TRV's so that individual rooms or areas can be controlled, and not just a case of switching the heating to the whole home either on or off.
 
So called smart heating devices are not really smart if they do not connect to other individual radiator TRV's so that individual rooms or areas can be controlled, and not just a case of switching the heating to the whole home either on or off.
It seems "Smart" means connects to phone, and has nothing to do with artificial intelligence. As far as TRV go there seems to be some very good electronic heads able to control each room individually, but the problem is telling the boiler when it needs to run.

So looking at a good system like the EvoHome each TRV head tells the central hub (called thermostat with EvoHome) if it requires hot water, and then the hub tells the boiler using the bus how much heat is required with something like OpenTherm so the boilers output is modulated to suit the demand.

It depends on which report you read as to how boiler efficiency relates to output, but what does seem fact is the losses each time a boiler is turned off, when it is turned off any heat in the boiler is wasted as it slowly exits through the flue, so modulating boiler is far better than simply turning it off and on.

However there is no reason why you should not have a number of wall thermostats to ensure the boiler is running when required. And the boiler is modulated by return water temperature and all the thermostats are for is to once all TRV heads are satisfied to turn off the boiler.

The big question seems to be, if the TRV head does not electrically connect to the wall thermostats, how should the wall thermostats be set? In my mothers house I have used two wall thermostats, wired in parallel, one could of course fit more, but the thermostats were fitted in an early attempt to control the central heating, before the electronic TRV heads were fitted, I did not disconnect the programmable thermostat, although I had intended to simply use the thermostat fitted in hall, and separate programmer. But found some nights with whole central heating off, it got too cold, so the programmable one was fitted in the kitchen, idea was only used at night, so oven not used at night so having it on side of built in oven would not matter.

The hall was also not ideal as when front door is opened I want a rapid recovery, however that rapid recovery would mean thermostat will turn off boiler before whole house warm, so also fitted a TRV in the hall, set to allow rapid recovery but turn down the radiator supply before the wall thermostat turns off boiler, this does a reasonable job.

The two main down stairs rooms use electronic heads on the TRV's and upstairs simple standard TRV's are fitted. It works, Heath Robinson maybe but it works.

However all down to house, both my own houses both worked very well with a single thermostat, my first house had hot air central heating, and the air is blown into each room and returns through grills in the doors, there was some individually control by moving the louvres on the supply grill in each room, but since air was circulated around the house, whole house was reasonably at the set temperature, very expensive to run, as at that time single glazed windows, so blowing warm air around the room a lot more heat was lost through windows, but it did work with single thermostat. The second house also was open plan, used TRV's up stairs to stop bedrooms over heating, but single thermostat worked well down stairs. Both cases it was house design, not the type of central heating, second house also had fan assisted radiators so air is moved around, but with double glazing the losses are much reduced.

Only in mothers house with traditional separate rooms and doors without vents to every room did I have a problem, and even then the problem was more down to sun shining through bay windows than the central heating, I could get it to work A1 with days where there was cloud cover, but when the sun came out I needed a much more responsive TRV head, and so the electronic heads were fitted.

It is true that fitting EvoHome would have cured problems in mothers house, however not with the other two houses, it is not suitable at all for hot air, and my second house did not have a modulating boiler and the fan assisted radiator does not alter water flow to control output, it controls fan. So there is no one system suits all.
 
It seems "Smart" means connects to phone, and has nothing to do with artificial intelligence. As far as TRV go there seems to be some very good electronic heads able to control each room individually, but the problem is telling the boiler when it needs to run.

So looking at a good system like the EvoHome each TRV head tells the central hub (called thermostat with EvoHome) if it requires hot water, and then the hub tells the boiler using the bus how much heat is required with something like OpenTherm so the boilers output is modulated to suit the demand.

It depends on which report you read as to how boiler efficiency relates to output, but what does seem fact is the losses each time a boiler is turned off, when it is turned off any heat in the boiler is wasted as it slowly exits through the flue, so modulating boiler is far better than simply turning it off and on.

However there is no reason why you should not have a number of wall thermostats to ensure the boiler is running when required. And the boiler is modulated by return water temperature and all the thermostats are for is to once all TRV heads are satisfied to turn off the boiler.

The big question seems to be, if the TRV head does not electrically connect to the wall thermostats, how should the wall thermostats be set? In my mothers house I have used two wall thermostats, wired in parallel, one could of course fit more, but the thermostats were fitted in an early attempt to control the central heating, before the electronic TRV heads were fitted, I did not disconnect the programmable thermostat, although I had intended to simply use the thermostat fitted in hall, and separate programmer. But found some nights with whole central heating off, it got too cold, so the programmable one was fitted in the kitchen, idea was only used at night, so oven not used at night so having it on side of built in oven would not matter.

The hall was also not ideal as when front door is opened I want a rapid recovery, however that rapid recovery would mean thermostat will turn off boiler before whole house warm, so also fitted a TRV in the hall, set to allow rapid recovery but turn down the radiator supply before the wall thermostat turns off boiler, this does a reasonable job.

The two main down stairs rooms use electronic heads on the TRV's and upstairs simple standard TRV's are fitted. It works, Heath Robinson maybe but it works.

However all down to house, both my own houses both worked very well with a single thermostat, my first house had hot air central heating, and the air is blown into each room and returns through grills in the doors, there was some individually control by moving the louvres on the supply grill in each room, but since air was circulated around the house, whole house was reasonably at the set temperature, very expensive to run, as at that time single glazed windows, so blowing warm air around the room a lot more heat was lost through windows, but it did work with single thermostat. The second house also was open plan, used TRV's up stairs to stop bedrooms over heating, but single thermostat worked well down stairs. Both cases it was house design, not the type of central heating, second house also had fan assisted radiators so air is moved around, but with double glazing the losses are much reduced.

Only in mothers house with traditional separate rooms and doors without vents to every room did I have a problem, and even then the problem was more down to sun shining through bay windows than the central heating, I could get it to work A1 with days where there was cloud cover, but when the sun came out I needed a much more responsive TRV head, and so the electronic heads were fitted.

It is true that fitting EvoHome would have cured problems in mothers house, however not with the other two houses, it is not suitable at all for hot air, and my second house did not have a modulating boiler and the fan assisted radiator does not alter water flow to control output, it controls fan. So there is no one system suits all.

I've all but settled on the Wiser system by Drayton https://wiser.draytoncontrols.co.uk

This has individual radiator TRV's that will bring the boiler on if a particular room calls for heat.

My only concern which is preventing me installing this or any similar system, is that potentially the boiler could be being cycled more frequently if one room calls for heat, then another, then another.

Another little niggle I have is whether by zoning each room and turning heat off to those rooms during the times when they are unused, would this cause more heat loss from the rooms that are heated? At the moment, the whole house effectively heats up at once and it all stays warm together, and cools together and then after a long while the boiler then fires up. If by not heating certain rooms, heat from the heated rooms could in my mind escape sooner into the unheated rooms - causing more boiler cycling and affecting comfort in the heated rooms.
 
I would have to use a Wave smart control as have a Worcester boiler which does not support OpenTherm so have to use their thermostat or nothing. I had originally intended to use Nest, which will using IFTTT talk to the MiHome Energenie TRV heads, but since Nest is OpenTherm and boiler does not support that never bothered.

I bought a programmable thermostat the Horstmann HRFS1 which seemed to have a really good spec, I could not at that time see why the firm fitting the central heating had used a Honeywell Y6630D until the Horstmann started to fail, OK being fair it was used free standing and it was knocked off the table a few times, so that may have caused the frequency to drift, the wireless bit had to be placed closer and closer to the receiver, now facing it just 3 foot away, however there seemed to be no fail safe, and the temperature just kept getting higher, came to visit mother and room at 28°C. The Honeywell is not programmable, but it auto closes down if coms are lost, it tests every 1/2 hour, also as it approaches the set temperature it start to cycle off/on so as not to over shoot.

As said would be better with Wave smart controls which modulate the boiler, but £240 price tag is a little off putting, plus would need some hard wiring in to the boiler bus. I looked at Wave Instructions
upload_2017-12-19_11-7-30.png
The lovely picture shows the problem, no connection with the TRV heads, OK at my house where a single thermostat can control whole house yes, but my boiler is not modulating, in mothers house really a waste of money.

In hind sight, and hind sight is easy, I could have used the Peglier i30 TRV heads and saved a lot of money, OK I am noisy and I do look at the temperature with my phone and PC, but knowing room at 21°C does not help in any way controlling the room.

Because of where the Honeywell Y6630D is fitted, and how it is used, likely a cheaper thermostat which does not stop the over shoot would actually work better, idea is in Winter the TRV controls first before the wall thermostat, all the wall thermostat is for is to switch off whole system on a warm day. Being fitted in the hall with a door to outside and a massive radiator to ensure a quick recovery is not really a good place for a thermostat, however other than EvoHome there is no way to really control the house any better, and the EvoHome price tag is off putting, plus can't use OpenTherm with her boiler.

I looked at the Wiser thermostat, and system, what I could not see, is how it can control each room to a different temperature? It clearly does connect to the TRV head, so will keep 4 rooms at the same temperature, my heads with Nest will also do that.
 

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