AAAAARGH

[westie101]

The type of earthing available I could tell you for most properties (but obviously a call centre operator would be stuck). Our customer services have a list of engineers like myself who can be consulted for this info.

The info was available for some properties at one time as individual cards were kept for each premises, unfortunately we then transferred them to computer. Of course when we were privatised most of the useful stuff on the billing records (where it was) got lost as it was no use to suppliers and we no longer have access to it anyway.

The whole way we are financed makes any attempt at dealing with these good practice ideas virtually impossible without legislation forcing it along.
Often this is not a lack of willingness at the DNOs but more a lack of concern by the regulator who keeps driving our costs down but letting the suppliers keep increasing theirs.

 

[JohnW2]

.... the DNOs (and whoever has managed them through the years) have had at least 90 years to collect records. Almost every time I call the DNO (western power) they are unable to provide me with the fuse rating or tell me if the property had been converted to TN-C-S ..... Now, I see from your comment that they don't even know what size the main (safety) earthing conductor is on a service they provide.
Is there any parallel to this by any other service provider?

In terms of poor records, I can offer our local water supplier. They appear to have no idea exactly how their water supply gets to my house, nor where there is a stopcock which would turn off the supply before it reaches my house - and, despite attempts over the years (aided by increasingly high tech tools), they have failed to discover the answer. All we know is that it enters my cellar, about 4 feet below ground level in a 2 inch iron pipe and probably travels under other properties to get there!

One of the people who tried to trace the supply told me that the person who would have known the answer was 'Freddie' (or whatever), since he "knew about every pipe in Buckinghamshire". Unfortunately, they added that he had died a few years previously, taking 'the records' with him to his grave!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

One of the people who tried to trace the supply told me that the person who would have known the answer was 'Freddie' (or whatever), since he "knew about every pipe in Buckinghamshire". Unfortunately, they added that he had died a few years previously, taking 'the records' with him to his grave!

Much like the guy who worked for the council in one of the local towns prior to nationalisation, we still are not sure of what some cables supply.
The keeping of accurate cable records is one issue that we are legally obliged to do but that is only size and location.

 

[sparkticus]

The whole way we are financed makes any attempt at dealing with these good practice ideas virtually impossible without legislation forcing it along.
Often this is not a lack of willingness at the DNOs but more a lack of concern by the regulator who keeps driving our costs down but letting the suppliers keep increasing theirs.

Yes, I can certainly understand that and have seen it in other industries but what a real shame. A gold mine of information lost.

 

[sparkticus]

One of the people who tried to trace the supply told me that the person who would have known the answer was 'Freddie' (or whatever), since he "knew about every pipe in Buckinghamshire". Unfortunately, they added that he had died a few years previously, taking 'the records' with him to his grave!

Yes that's fair enough, I guess I can see how information gets lost especially when it is in the form of a "tribal knowledge system" but that just confirms to me that the management of these huge organisations (water, gas,electric etc) have no real interest in the details. They comply with legislation but nothing beyond that. It is all about profit & loss - an area where they do pay intimate attention to detail (but of course still get it wrong) !!!

 

[JohnW2]

Yes that's fair enough, I guess I can see how information gets lost especially when it is in the form of a "tribal knowledge system" but that just confirms to me that the management of these huge organisations (water, gas,electric etc) have no real interest in the details. They comply with legislation but nothing beyond that. It is all about profit & loss - an area where they do pay intimate attention to detail (but of course still get it wrong) !!!

I imagine the main problem is the vast amount of probably not-very-well-documented legacy data and suspect that all work undertaken in the past two or three decades is actually very well documented. If that's true, then maybe in a few more decades time, virtually everything should be very well documented.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

To give an idea of the size of the problem, the fused neutral cut-out I mentioned earlier were declared illegal(??) in the 1930's. We are still finding them on the system!

 

[JohnW2]

To give an idea of the size of the problem, the fused neutral cut-out I mentioned earlier were declared illegal(??) in the 1930's. We are still finding them on the system!

If I wanted to be critical (of the system, not you!) I might suggest that, at least in recent decades, it should have been possible for 'the system' to detect such things at the time of meter changes - when operatives necessarily have to 'handle' the cutouts; their extensive training would presumably enable them to notice the neutral fuse.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[westie101]

Correct! Pre-privatisation it should have been easy but somehow fell off the radar (actually it should have been sorted pre-nationalisation).
It is only as it became apparent they still existed and were finally outlawed in ESCQR with a deadline that management got twitchy!

 

[sparkticus]

I imagine the main problem is the vast amount of probably not-very-well-documented legacy data and suspect that all work undertaken in the past two or three decades is actually very well documented. If that's true, then maybe in a few more decades time, virtually everything should be very well documented.

Possibly (and this may vary by region) we can't even get fuse ratings on properties that were built in 2001/2002. In many cases, I suspect they have that information but it is not easily available to the people on the front desk. There have been two occasions where Western Power have arranged to call me back with "information" then two or three days later they did call but only to say that they don't have the fuse ratings and would need to arrange a visit to pull the fuse (at a cost) Frankly, if they could actually provide me with accurate details over the phone (or via the internet) I would not mind paying say £10 - £15 for that info. What does not work for me is to have to wait 2/3 weeks and pay £46 + VAT. I can't help wondering if they are missing an opportunity for a revenue stream here?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Some old (pre-war) TN-S supplies have something like a 2.5mm from the lead sheath to the MET, but we are not aware of any issues actually caused by this!

This is a post-war TN-S:

I did measure them once - can't remember the size but it was pretty small.

Oh - and don't be fooled by there being 2 conductors - one of them is for my neighbour's supply. Yes, that's right folks - I could accidentally break or deliberately disconnect my neighbour's earth.

And if somehow we could coordinate two simultaneous faults, both fault currents would pass through one of those conductors.

 

[JohnW2]

This is a post-war TN-S: ... I did measure them once - can't remember the size but it was pretty small.

...and the material? If not plated copper (which I doubt), I wonder what the 'Cu equivalent CSA' would have been?

Is it still like that?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[Paul_C]

They look like 3-strand conductors: 3/.036 perhaps?

 

[JohnW2]

Possibly (and this may vary by region) we can't even get fuse ratings on properties that were built in 2001/2002.

That really is inexcusable. As you say, I'd be very surprised if they did not have that information (together, probably, with the training records, hair colour and shoe size of the person who installed the fuses!) - if only one could find someone who knew how to access the data!

I suppose I'm surprised that there is not actually a requirement (or, at least, a 'good practice') to provide an indication of the fuse rating at the installation. It would be so easy!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ricicle]

. At present we require a minimum 10mm earth wire for a 25mm PME service, yet on here we are told that 16mm is the minimum!

Isn't it BS7671 that points us in the direction of 16mm² (in the absence of doing calculations) not this forum in particular ?