Absolutely Shocking...

...what is required is a little vague and down to interpretation. The main problem is:-
314.1 Every installation shall be divided into circuits, as necessary, to:
(iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit.
(iv) reduce the possibility of unwanted tripping of RCDs due to excessive protective conductor currents produced by equipment in normal operation.
I would personally think that you have probably omitted the part of 314.1 which is the most "vague and down to interpretation", namely

"314.1(i) avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault"

I think that is really the one which leads many/most people to feel that the regs are demanding dual-RCD CUs (or separate RCBOs). Ironically, I don't think that 314.1(iii) is often very convincingly addressed. It seems to me that addressing it would really require more than one lighting circuit, not on the same RCD, on each floor (if not in each room) - or battery backed-up 'emergency lighting'. The very common arrangement of having separate upstairs and downstairs lighting circuits would not seem to very effectively reduce the potential dangers of losing a lighting circuit - the infamous person holding a pan of boiling oil when the kitchen lights go out is not going to be helped much by lighting still being available in upstairs bedrooms and bathrooms!

Kind Regards, John
 
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If one exceeds 30mA line - earth then one has gone over the current permitted. The regulations do not state if the current referred to is line - neutral or line - earth it simply states over current.
 
If one exceeds 30mA line - earth then one has gone over the current permitted. The regulations do not state if the current referred to is line - neutral or line - earth it simply states over current.
I think that is stretching things a bit. :)

There is a whole chapter of BS7671 entitled "Protection against overcurrent". Are you seriously suggesting that this should be taken to include protection against L-E or N-E currents which exceed the IΔn Of an RCD?

Kind Regards, John
 
The point is it is up to the person signing the certificate to decide and he has to use his professional opinion as to what should be permitted.

If he follows convention he can hide behind that fact and is unlikely to be required to account as to why he took that option.

If however he does not follow convention then he will need to show how and why he selected the option.

Returning to case in question stating that it made the installation safer even if it did not fully comply with regulations would likely result in no action being taken if taken to court. However court cases lost or won cost money and many electricians would prefer to not have to defend their actions so would refuse any work where the risk of a court case exists.
 
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If one exceeds 30mA line - earth then one has gone over the current permitted. The regulations do not state if the current referred to is line - neutral or line - earth it simply states over current.
I think that is stretching things a bit. :)

There is a whole chapter of BS7671 entitled "Protection against overcurrent". Are you seriously suggesting that this should be taken to include protection against L-E or N-E currents which exceed the IΔn Of an RCD?

Kind Regards, John
What I am suggesting is it is down to interpretation and there is a grey area. The question has to be "Is there an unacceptable risk?" And every electrician has to decide if there is or not and unacceptable risk.

I was at my mothers house last night and wanted to ensure she had a light she could use to get out of bed. However as night approached I realised the street lights gave her enough light without setting up any standard lamp.

OK with an emergency lamp total power cut and there is still light but as far as splitting into circuits it does not matter how many circuits total power cut and you still lose light. Her house has the stair well on outside of house so even with a power cut no problem seeing how to descend the stairs. Mine is in centre of house so my landing and stair lighting is battery backed.

Basic fact is there is no one size fits all.
 
What I am suggesting is it is down to interpretation and there is a grey area. The question has to be "Is there an unacceptable risk?" And every electrician has to decide if there is or not and unacceptable risk.
I couldn't agree more (and that's one potential advantage of 'vague' regulations, in the right hands!) - but many people seem to think that 314.1 is simply telling them that they must install dual-RCD (or RCD+RCBO, or all-RCBO) CUs and don't think beyond that. In some circumstances, intelligent thought and judgement might even lead to the conclusion that 314.1 could be satisfied despite a single, CU-wide, RCD. As you say ...
Basic fact is there is no one size fits all.

Kind Regards, John
 
Her house has the stair well on outside of house so even with a power cut no problem seeing how to descend the stairs.
So she never experiences a power cut where the street lighting is also knocked out?

We always lose the lot.
 
Her house has the stair well on outside of house so even with a power cut no problem seeing how to descend the stairs.
So she never experiences a power cut where the street lighting is also knocked out?

We always lose the lot.
Of course there can be a general outage however if that is the case it does not matter how many circuits you split the house into or if you count a RCD as forming a circuit or not.

Personally I like the idea of emergency lighting and I have such a unit at top of my stairs.

With emergency lights fitted the "(iii) take account of danger that may arise from the failure of a single circuit such as a lighting circuit" is taken care of so one could fit a single RCD covering all circuits where it's unlikely to trip in normal circumstances which is exactly what is done with supplies to caravans and boats.

A small house or flat is not different to a caravan.

However forgetting the regulations what I am saying to fit a new RCD protected consumer unit first without taking the rest of wiring into consideration is wrong. Even with emergency lights before changing one wants to test the existing wiring to see if there are any existing earth leakage problems.

Also in spite what I have said one really does need to have two circuits each with their own RCD protection feeding at least a socket each so when there are problems one has an option to try each appliance in a different RCD supplied socket to be able to identify which appliance is faulty.

My house when built had a ring final wired through the cavity wall and to separate the sockets to form two circuits would mean converting the ring to two radials and with the lights it would be just impossible to split. I wired a second ring which serves the kitchen extension and a few odd sockets many years ago so I do have two independent RCD protected circuits both made RCD protected well before the regulations required it.

But as standard with my house the best one could have done was use a RCBO to feed the 4 original circuits with a house just 34 years old. Since the immersion was removed and the kitchen remote switch and immersion heater outlet was replaced with two sockets I would with original wiring have two sockets on a different RCBO so in my case without splitting into two radials I would have two sockets I could use if something caused the ring to fail and it could not be reset.

As to splitting a ring final into two radials the question has never been answered as to what the design current is for a radial? If we used the same formula as with a ring final then first 20 amp at centre or end means the radial design current = MCB size so the amount of cable permitted with two radials to comply with volt drop is less than half that permitted for a single ring. So before splitting careful measurements need to be made.

I have discussed this at length when I tried to make a program to work out volt drop from the prospective short circuit current and after tests I realised the meters are just not accurate enough to get a useful measurement so again it would be up to the judgement of any electrician doing the job as to if the existing design could be changed.

Clearly where changing the design then an installation certificate is required and the electrician has to sign as being responsible for the design. Unless there is an existing installation certificate then I see it as being a problem to issue and installation certificate for work which one has not been responsible for so we then come to the big questions.

One could you find an electrician willing to do the work?
Two if you can with the issues talked about can you trust his judgement?

Much depends on work load all electricians must find enough work and when work coming in is low feeding the family may come before ensuring all the boxes are ticked but when there is plenty of work those jobs which may in the future come back and bite you are back healed. And if the electrician is short of work the question is why. Maybe he's not that good.

It may be the original design will allow easy splitting of circuits and the 4 way box can be replaced with a 10 way box leaving room for expansion without a problem. However you will not find out that on here it needs some one actually there in the house to give you the options.
 
Her house has the stair well on outside of house so even with a power cut no problem seeing how to descend the stairs.
So she never experiences a power cut where the street lighting is also knocked out?

We always lose the lot.
Of course there can be a general outage however if that is the case it does not matter how many circuits you split the house into or if you count a RCD as forming a circuit or not.
Indeed, but I was just responding to your comment that in your Mum's house you can still see to use the stairs during a power cut because of the light from outside.

Were her house in my street that would never happen - power cuts always take out the street lights too....
 

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