add to existing or create a new circuit?

As to new circuit and Part P it's back to defining a circuit. The supply could be regarded as being split into two circuits supplied by RCD1 and RCD2. The MCB's are no different to FCU's and since use of latter is not considered as new circuit under Part P neither can use of the former be considered as being forming a new circuit. ... Yes BS7671 would consider a FCU as forming a new circuit. But although Part P says that one way to comply is to follow BS7671 it would seem it would require a court case to be fought and a president to be set before anyone can work out what the law requires.
I really think that this is all down to common sense, and one would hope that any court that became involved would similarly exercise common sense. Ironically, prior to the 'relaxations' (in England) in notification requirements last year (and still in Wales), the Building Regs made it explicitly clear that adding fused spurs to an existing circuit did not require notification. It seems inconceivable that they intended that the 'relaxations' would result in such previously non-notifiable things becoming notifiable. I would suggest that (i.e. 'IMO') when there is just a single CU/DB, the common sense definition of 'new circuit' (in the context of notification) is probably fairly clear - namely a circuit which originates from the CU/DB and was not previously there (and excluding spurs of pre-existing circuits which happened to originate at the CU). I agree it gets a bit less obvious if one has CUs feeding CUs (as is common with sheds/garages etc.), but that's a bit different.
At the end of the day it is near impossible for any DIY person to do any electrical work and comply with BS7671 so since this is a DIY forum what is the point in telling the DIY'er that he can't do something what is more important is to show them how to do it as safe as they can. ... Advising them to use one of these ... at £35 may be they will use it. But advise them to use one of these ... at £450 and your really wasting your time. So come on chaps lets get real.
The need for realism and pragmatism is something I've often discussed, and had very heated debates with BAS (as sometimes others) about. I do understand the viewpoint of PBoD, BAS etc, but if that is one's view, then the only real solution would be close forums like this (and leave DIYers to their own devices), since the only alternative would be (as BAS often did) to answer almost any question with advice not to do it, on the basis that, amongst other things (and as you say), almost no ordinary DIYers would have the facilities, knowledge or inclination to undertake the 'proper required testing'.

I've always acknowledged that there is a dilemma. However, if forums like this are to exist, and if the likes of us are going to make the decision to participate in them, then some sort of 'realism', or whatever you want to call it, has got to be exercised, otherwise the whole thing becomes extremely silly and there is simply no point.

Kind Regards, John
 
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I do agree with you John it is a case of if it improves safety by doing what we do then lets do it even if we are to ignore some of the fine points of the regulations.

I have had this argument about fitting new consumer units when the electrics in the house do not comply. Adding a RCD must help and refusing to add one because you think more should be done is not really the way to go.

Yes I agree that likely the writers of Part P wanted to stop people from delving into the consumer unit and so likely the restrictions on new circuits was there to stop people playing inside the CU.

However if that's the case they should say so and not beat around the bush.

If I want to be pedantic if you add any item which the CU was not designed to take by the CU manufacturers it stops being a CU and becomes a distribution board instead. As a competent person I am allowed to use a distribution board so once I modify the CU I don't have to inform the LABC. That is clearly not what is intended and I am sure any court would argue it's not allowed and was not in the sprite of the act.

All I am really doing is trying to kid myself into believing it OK. Most I hope would see it as just being an excuse and if there was any reason why the health and safety executive got involved I would still go to jail without passing go.

But my point is it's so badly written that any one can find a way of kidding themselves (even if no one else believes them) that it's OK.

It would be far more honest to say "I'm not paying the LABC I am going to take a chance." and we all know unless something goes really wrong one is likely to get away with it.

At the end of the day it does not really matter if reported to LABC or not it's doing a good job which is important. I have made mistakes I am sure I will make many more but up to now I have found the mistake before some one other than me has been hurt. In the main due to inspecting and testing.
 
I do agree with you John it is a case of if it improves safety by doing what we do then lets do it even if we are to ignore some of the fine points of the regulations.
As you will understand, that would be my view, but I do understand that some electricians feel constrained (e.g. by employers, insurers or scheme operators) to work 'to the word of the regulations'.
...However if that's the case they should say so and not beat around the bush.
Indeed, there is a lack of clarity and detail in 'the rules', which leads to all sorts of uncertainties and discussions/arguments. I can't help but feel that it would be beneficial for those who write these rules/legislation to spend some time studying the discussions in forums like this one, or spend time with some practising electricians, to give them some insight into some of the apparent anomalies and lacks of desirable detail in a lot of what they write!
If I want to be pedantic if you add any item which the CU was not designed to take by the CU manufacturers it stops being a CU and becomes a distribution board instead. As a competent person I am allowed to use a distribution board so once I modify the CU I don't have to inform the LABC. That is clearly not what is intended ....
To be fair, the current legislation (in England) says that "replacing a CU" is notifiable - it does not mention what one replaces it with! Hence, if the old/existing box qualifies as a CU, replacing it with anything (even if not a type-tested 'CU') is probably notifiable!

Kind Regards, John
 
As you will understand, that would be my view, but I do understand that some electricians feel constrained (e.g. by employers, insurers or scheme operators) to work 'to the word of the regulations'.
That is a very good point. But clearly DIY people do not have the same problem.

The same applies to the three signatures on an insulation certificate to use them would mean using LABC as the majority of scheme operators would not accept them.

When I took over a job I was lucky it was for the disabled so no LABC charge and since I did not design I did not sign for the design and also in the exception I listed the parts of the job done by the electrician who had run off into the Welsh hills of Corwen. I fully expected the LABC inspector to return it and say it was not acceptable that he needed the three signatures however a completion certificate was issued without even visiting the completed job.

Have you ever seen a case where the LABC were taken to court for site safety? It would at the moment seem they are immune to prosecution it's always some one else at fault even though there are responsible for site safety. Other departments within the council have been taken to court (Baby X) but not building control.

Unless you really believe building control never make a mistake then since they always get away with it then what's the point of having them?
 
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As you will understand, that would be my view, but I do understand that some electricians feel constrained (e.g. by employers, insurers or scheme operators) to work 'to the word of the regulations'.
That is a very good point. But clearly DIY people do not have the same problem.
Indeed - and. ironically, that means that conscientious DIYers may, as you have suggested, sometimes be more able (than electricians) to to do things which (in common sense terms) improve safety, even though they might not be strictly reg-compliant.

Kind Regards, John
 
If you're saying that you deliberately wrote something which you didn't think the OP would understand,
I don't think I did
the hope that the OP would then question you about it
Hoping the OP may ask how the testing is achieved
As I've said, if one has an important point that one wishes to make (e.g. that the RCD should be properly tested), then I personally feel that the point should be made as clearly as possible - and certainly not 'deliberately unclearly'!
Unclear, what was unclear about this?
Also could you confirm that the RCD is functioning within the requirements expected for a domestic property?
 
If you're saying that you deliberately wrote something which you didn't think the OP would understand,
I don't think I did
Apologies if I misunderstood you - I was merely reading:
You knew what you were getting at, and I knew what you were getting at, but the OP very probably didn't.
That was my intention .....
...which I thought was clear, but it seems that I was wrong.
Unclear, what was unclear about this?
Also could you confirm that the RCD is functioning within the requirements expected for a domestic property?
What will almost certainly have been totally unclear to the OP was 'what you were getting at' and what point you were trying to make. You know as well as I do that the answer to your(rhetorical) question would be 'no'. All I've been saying/asking is why you didn't make the point you wanted to make to the OP, rather than trying to get him to 'drag it out of you'?

Kind Regards, John
 
What will almost certainly have been totally unclear to the OP was 'what you were getting at' and what point you were trying to make.
Without knowing the skill level of the OP, would be difficult to access that
You know as well as I do that the answer to your(rhetorical) question would be 'no'.
Very likely, as the question was not one that was difficult to answer either way
All I've been saying/asking is why you didn't make the point you wanted to make to the OP
The OP asked a question and so did I, don't see the issue!
 
The OP asked a question and so did I, don't see the issue!
I really don't understand why you feel unable to let go of this. I merely expressed my personal opinion that 'clear straight talking' is the most helpful and reasonable way to convey information to OPs. If you feel happier using BAS-like cryptic rhetorical questions, then that's your prerogative.

Kind Regards, John
 
There was bugger all cryptic or unclear in my question, it is is you that brought something up that I cannot see any issue with. Please tell what was unclear/cryptical about asking if the OP could prove that the RCD was function correctly? They either could or they couldn't, seem clear enough to me!
Me thinks it is you that needs to be letting go, rather than me, I am only defending what I posted, you are quite determined in saying it was unclear/cryptical and that is simple is not true!


Also could you confirm that the RCD is functioning within the requirements expected for a domestic property?
 
There was b*****r all cryptic or unclear in my question, it is is you that brought something up that I cannot see any issue with. Please tell what was unclear/cryptical about asking if the OP could prove that the RCD was function correctly? They either could or they couldn't, seem clear enough to me!
I'm afraid that there is no way that I can explain my personal view/point any more clearly than I already have. As I said, if you're happy with your style of communicating with OPs, then fair enough.

Kind Regards, John
 
You understood the question John, what makes you think no one else did?
There was nothing unclear about it and this forum is not full of members/guests that do not understand question like that, they may not chose to answer them but that does not mean they do not comprende!
 
You understood the question John, what makes you think no one else did?
OK, I'll have just one more go, by presenting an analogy, but will then probably give up! It's not a matter of the understandability of the question (which, as you say, in itself is clear) but, rather, of understanding what you are getting at (i.e. what advice you are giving). Imagine that you had posed the following question:
  • "I've never had to wear glasses or visit an optician but, as I get older, my sight is not what it used to be, and it sometimes feels as if my 'side vision' has deteriorated. I recently tried some off-the-shelf glasses in a high street shop and they seemed to make my sight great. Is it OK to just buy and use them?"
Which of the following responses would you find the more useful/helpful/sensible:
  • (a)...Before buying glasses, you should get an optitician to check the pressure in your eyes since it could be high ('glaucoma') and, untreated, that could eventually lead to blindness.
    OR
    (b)...Can you confirm that the intra-occular pressure in both your eyes is within the normal range?
You might well eventually get to the sort of advice/information you needed if the initial response were (b), but why should someone make you jump through those hoops, rather than just giving you a useful response in the first place?

Kind Regards, John
 
I was not offering advice, I was asking a question!
That was not answered, so I could not elaborate further.
The question was clear and not cryptic, my issue is you claimed otherwise!
Nothing to do with any made up ballcox about eye tests !
 
I was not offering advice, I was asking a question! That was not answered, so I could not elaborate further. The question was clear and not cryptic, my issue is you claimed otherwise! Nothing to do with any made up ballcox about eye tests !
You're right - you didn't offer any advice about the issue in question. Instead, as you say, you asked a question - totally unnecessarily, given that you knew precisely what the answer would be, and were merely trying to get the OP to admit that he did not have the ability to undertake tests which would be required to answer your question. Some people don't like it when they feel they are being treated as children, so maybe that's why we haven't seen the OP again.

As I said, having tried one last time, I think that I now should give up, because you clearly don't want to understand my point. I have to say that I'm a little disappointed that no-one else has tried to help explain to you, because I'm sure that plenty of others will understand what I've been getting at (even if they don't agree with me).

Kind Regards, John
 

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