I own some agricultural land which backs onto the rear of a housing estate. Some of the houses have extended their gardens taking a small part of the land. This was done over 12 years ago. I understand planning permission is required to do this but this was not obtained. Does the fact that planning permission was not obtained effect the ownership or has the land been lost due to adverse possession.
Adverse possession and planning permission
- Thread starter leepete
- Start date
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If they have been using the land as residential garden for longer than 10 years (and can prove it) they will have gained immunity from planning. Is the land registered? (to you) If so it's not that straightforward to claim adverse posession.
The land is actually held in Trust at the moment and is it registered land to a bank until the last beneficiary dies and then it will be one third mine. Then presumably if they have gained immunity from planning there is nothing we can do. Thanks for your reply John
Wouldn't have thought so. At the moment they possess the land but it's not theirs until they complete a legal claim and have the title transferred. At that point the registered owner will be given notice and will have the opportunity to object. If the boundaries are clear and can be proved by you - or the trust - then it won't be that easy to complete the claim.
In pre-registration days it was much easier to claim land because notices would just be posted in newspapers etc. so if the owners didn't happen to see them they didn't even know what was going on until it was too late. Registration has mostly stopped all that.
In pre-registration days it was much easier to claim land because notices would just be posted in newspapers etc. so if the owners didn't happen to see them they didn't even know what was going on until it was too late. Registration has mostly stopped all that.
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Thanks again John, one of the houses where they say they have had the land since 1976 are actually tenants, ie the house belonged to the council and has subsequnetly been transferred to a housing association. The housing association have admitted that they have taken our land but at the end of the day I suppose we will have to forget it.
Planning permission and land ownership/adverse possession are unrelated.
If it is your land, then its your land and you either claim it back, or if it is already built on then sell, lease or licence it to the neighbour
If it is your land, then its your land and you either claim it back, or if it is already built on then sell, lease or licence it to the neighbour
I can apply for (and gain) planning permission on land that I don't own, on the basis that I might only want to buy the land if I could build a block of flats on it. It doesn't matter that they're not violating planning law any more.
The only issue with the planning permission is whether the planning authority would be able to either force the owners of the gardens who have extended into agricultural land to either apply for planning permission or if they refuse to insist they retract their garden to the boundary. As probably all the houses extended their gardens over 10 years ago, I suspect the answer is no but I was just wanting confirmation.
It's not a simple matter of the planning permission, as there could be other issues from conditions, easements, covenants, licences etc, and as the properties were ex council (and may still be owned by the council but managed by the association) then there are issues with tenancies and leases and the rights and conditions imposed
The fact that the development by be time-barred from planning enforcement does not make it immune form any other legal action, nor will it influence the outcome of any other action
The fact that the development by be time-barred from planning enforcement does not make it immune form any other legal action, nor will it influence the outcome of any other action
The planning issue is a red herring. They might or might not have acquired immunity from planning. The crucial thing really is whether they might be able to acquire ownership via adverse posession?
Is the piece(s) of land suffiently large that it would clearly show on the land registry title? In other words could you easily tell that the red line on their title registers is not in the right place? Have you checked their titles to see what they show? Have any of the houses been sold in the last 12 years - if so what did the current owner believe they were buying? It also occurs to me; why has 12 years gone past without you addressing the issue?
Is the piece(s) of land suffiently large that it would clearly show on the land registry title? In other words could you easily tell that the red line on their title registers is not in the right place? Have you checked their titles to see what they show? Have any of the houses been sold in the last 12 years - if so what did the current owner believe they were buying? It also occurs to me; why has 12 years gone past without you addressing the issue?
The reason John it has not been addressed previously is because I live in Surrey and was not aware of the situation until brought to my notice by the current managing agent very recently. At the moment I am waiting to obtain the exact numbers of the other houses that are involved and will then be able to find out when they were bought. Only one of the houses that has extended belongs to the housing association.
The reason I was particularly interested in the planning part of it was because if the planning department are involved there would be no costs. It would certainly not be worth us. personally, taking legal action to force them to revert back to their boundaries or asking them to buy the land. I haven't checked their titles John and at the moment do not know how by how many feet they have extended but as there are houses that have not extended that will be the original boundary. Diana
The reason I was particularly interested in the planning part of it was because if the planning department are involved there would be no costs. It would certainly not be worth us. personally, taking legal action to force them to revert back to their boundaries or asking them to buy the land. I haven't checked their titles John and at the moment do not know how by how many feet they have extended but as there are houses that have not extended that will be the original boundary. Diana
The red lines on the title registers is crucial. Boundary discrepencies are often picked up by land registry when somebody sells. An example I was involved in just last year: Owner B bought a semi detached cottage. Six or seven years later owner A (the left hand cottage) sells up. Just as they are about to complete all the land registry stuff was sent back to solicitors because the red lines didn't match up. Owner A (the seller) is obviously not happy. He's lived in the cottage for 16 - 17 years so as far as he's concerned it's his land. Well it wasn't. The land had to be given back and it held up the sale for 6 months.
So it would be very helpful to you if the red lines on the title registers were clear and easy to transfer to site. Problem is that small discrepencies don't always show up easily on plan. The red line on a title register represents a strip of land about 1m wide - sometimes more - so a boundary moved by 2m is not that easy to spot from plans and land registry might not spot it. Obviously the more the boundary has moved the more easily it will show up on plan.
If I were you I would download copies of all the title plans involved (you can do that online for about £4 each) and see what they show. If the plan red lines are all shown in a nice straight line but the boundaries on site go in and out then that is your first piece of hard evidence. If you can also determine dimensions on site and they show a clear difference compared to the plan then even better.
So it would be very helpful to you if the red lines on the title registers were clear and easy to transfer to site. Problem is that small discrepencies don't always show up easily on plan. The red line on a title register represents a strip of land about 1m wide - sometimes more - so a boundary moved by 2m is not that easy to spot from plans and land registry might not spot it. Obviously the more the boundary has moved the more easily it will show up on plan.
If I were you I would download copies of all the title plans involved (you can do that online for about £4 each) and see what they show. If the plan red lines are all shown in a nice straight line but the boundaries on site go in and out then that is your first piece of hard evidence. If you can also determine dimensions on site and they show a clear difference compared to the plan then even better.
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