Advice needed on legitimacy of Part P cert

[Willio]

Need some help here;

Had builders in who as part of the contract were to install certain wiring in the house. All seemed fine 'til we received 'cert' which was in a differnet name to that of the spark who did the work. when we raised it with them it transpired that the spark who did the work isn't approved to self cert but this other fella was happy to provide a certificate. At this point i get nervous! is this a valid cert foe the purposes of meeting Part P requirements? from what i have seen it isn't but what can i do?

The cert appears to have been provided under the guise of 'testing and complaince (not installation, which has been struck through on the cert). A quick call to the regulating body highlighted that the certifying spark hadn't notofied the job to them and so they hadn't sent onward confirmation to LABC (which raises a separate question of how they (LABC) subsequently issued a building compliance certificate having not had proper electrical sign-offs! Any ideas?!).

It all seems a bit of a fudge to me and i'm worried that when i come to sell the house this will bite me on the proverbial or will result in insuranc issues should the worst happen. so far as i can tell the builder should have hired a part p cert spark who should hae notified the job etc or they should have pre-notified the LABC who should have tested it (also, i understand that it is not permissable to have ather spark sign off on someonel elses work).

any advice greatly appreciated!

 

[dingbat]

Had builders in who as part of the contract were to install certain wiring in the house.

There's your first problem.

All seemed fine 'til we received 'cert' which was in a differnet name to that of the spark who did the work. when we raised it with them it transpired that the spark who did the work isn't approved to self cert but this other fella was happy to provide a certificate.

Which he is not allowed to do under the terms of his registration.

is this a valid cert foe the purposes of meeting Part P requirements?

No

The cert appears to have been provided under the guise of 'testing and complaince (not installation, which has been struck through)

Then you have not, in fact, been issued with a certificate at all, as it is the responsibility of the person signing for 'construction' to issue the certificate. (Refer to the notes, which should be on the back of the Electrical Installation Certificate.)

so far as i can tell the builder should have hired a part p cert spark who should hae notified the job etc or they should have pre-notified the LABC who should have tested it (also, i understand that it is not permissable to have ather spark sign off on someonel elses work).

You are correct and they are in the wrong.

Trading Standards - it's only if you report things like this that the authorities have any chance of policing cowboy work.

 

[1john]

Report this guy to his regulating body and the council, I doubt he ever went to your home and seen any of the wiring let alone tested it did he?

 

[ericmark]

I also would say report the guy. Since he has issued something there is no way he can try an blame you. So go for it.

Out of interest there are four forms
1) Minor works which is unlikely in your case as too much work done.
2) Installation certificate there are two types one with single signature which can be sent to scheme provider and one with multi-signatures which would need to go to LABC in most cases.
3) Periodic inspection Report not called the Electrical Installation Condition Report. This is not for new build but where one electrician has for some reason not completed an Installation certificate these are often accepted buy the LABC to issue a completion certificate.
4) Completion Certificate this is for domestic the all important document and is issued either by the LABC or the Scheme provider and is the legal document which says they have viewed one of the other three and have taken any other steps required to ensure the installation is up to standard and is safe. However it is not required for all electrical work. It is required for:-
New circuit from consumer unit.
Work outside, in kitchen, or in bathroom.
Changing a consumer unit.
Since you don't say what work has been completed we don't know if it is required in your case. Only an electrician who is registered with a scheme provider can get these certificates at a reasonable cost. Other electricians must use the LABC route which is expensive. In Wales £100 + vat for up to £2000 worth of work. Other areas vary. However where other work is being completed under the LABC then to include the electrics as part of the work does not cost so much and with disabled work it is free. So there are some cases where to work through the LABC can work out cost effective.

The first three certificates do not require any membership or qualifications to issue. But of course you must only sign for bits you have done. So any DIY man who feels he has the knowledge could issue them. However within the trade it is considered that one should have a C&G 2391 or 2392 to be able to complete inspection and testing. But it is more to do with insurance companies and what they require to insure than it is to do with any legal requirements.

If the electrical work done does not require Part P registration then although there are irregularities it may not be worth the effort to correct! Unless of course there is something wrong with the work.

Looking at court cases there are many where electricians claimed to be members of scheme and were not. Also loads for sub standard work. But I have not seen a single one where the work was A1 and the guy did not claim to be a member of an over seeing body. So unless there is something wrong with workmanship then likely you will need to pay fee and get completion certificate but other wise very little will happen.

 

[Willio]

Cheers all. You've confirmed my own thoughts. going to go after this crowd as they are sure to have done it more than once.

I have real issues with the LABC as well when i think of it as they have issued a compliance certificate improperly. If i were to try and sell my house now and was asked for a certificate on the electrics in effect i couldn't.

 

[Willio]

Sorry ericmark, hadn't seen your post.

The cert is an Electrical Installation Certificate. The work relates to a loft extension and a new circuit was installed. The fella who issued the cert has not so much as set foot in my house let alone seen the work.

The work appears to be of sound quality but isn't the correct certifcation and notification the issue? The work was not pre-notified to LABC so far as i am aware and nor has it been registeered with the overseeing body. Again, the cert has design and construction struck through, it appears to relate just to inspection and testing.

 

[flameport]

If the person issuing the certificate with test result on it hasn't even been into your house, everything written on it is a load of made up rubbish.

To obtain the test results, they would have to visit your house and spend several hours completing the tests.
If the person who installed it did the testing, then they would have completed the certificate as well.

 

[dingbat]

I have real issues with the LABC as well when i think of it as they have issued a compliance certificate improperly. If i were to try and sell my house now and was asked for a certificate on the electrics in effect i couldn't.

You are saying that the LABC have issued a Building Regulations cert?

If so and if it covers the complete job, you will have no problems should you ever come to sell.

Whether or not any of the work - electrical or otherwise - is up to snuff, is another matter.

 

[Willio]

The LABC have sent us a Certificate of Completion of Work, yes.

However, when we called them to ask about this electrical cert issue they seemd wholly uninterested - they had a cert and thats all that mattered.

When we pointed out it was issued by someone who had never been to the house they simply asked us whether we were suggesting fraud! Erm...yes!!! I called the sparks regulating body and they were a little concerned that the work hadn't been registered with them and weren't entirely sure how the LABC had issued a completion cert when the elctrical cert had not been confirmed by them but suggested we take it up with the LABC! A bit circular methinks!

Plus; the LABC, when confronted with this potential issue simply said once a completion cert has been issued it can't be revoked.

Unreal that you can effectively have a system that protects this kind of behaviour. Can't believe we paid a fee for this!

 

[Taylortwocities]

Willio. Before you take this further, please be aware of the terminology/

There is no such thing as a "Part P" Certificate.

An Electrical Installation Certificate (EIC) is what you should have been provided with. This certificate confirms that the works done comply with BS7671 (The Wiring Regulations).

On this certificate the results of the tests done are recorded together with other info about the installation.

There are two types of this cetificate.
The usual one (for domestic typically) has one box for signature by the electrician who has done the design, installation and test of the works.
A more complicated form is used for big installations where different people may carry out the design, installation and test and there is a box for each acitivty for the relavent people to sign. They say that they did their bit and it complies with BS7671.
For these more complex installtions it is often the case that a more experienced supervisor will sign off the test part after the wiring has been done by the wireman but he will certainly have had to carry out the tests to be able to fill in the test results on the form.

In the "grey market" non-qualified electricans may have a qualified mate who will sign off the work for a few quid. This is fraud.

I have not mentioned LABC in the above as they are not part of this process.
Several years ago electrical works were dragged kicking and screaming under the Building Regulations umbrella and the words that legislate this are Building Regs Part P.


IN ADDITION TO CERTIFYING THE WORKS the electrician who has done the works is supposed to be registered to self certify his own works. When the works are complete he notifies his registration body that the works have been done and that they comply with the BUILDING REGULATIONS (part P included).
The registration body notify the LABC and the client gets a completion document.

In the "grey market" non-registered electricans may have a registered mate who will notify the work as their own for a few quid. This is fraud.

There is another even greyer process where the LABC cant be too bothered with the formal notification process and will accept a BS7671 certificate from an electrician that they know - and a completion document pops out as a result. This is very wrong as it completely devalues the spirit of Building Regulations Part P and makes monkeys out of all those electricians who spend £££££££££ keeping their qualifcations up to date, joining registration bodies and doing it properly.

I hope that clarifies the process and I wish you joy in raining on someone's parade.

 

[Willio]

Taylortwocities - a very, very useful summary. Thank you very much. This terminaoloy seems ot be used so interchangably; its no wonder the average joe in the street is baffled by it all!

An additional question; if the registration body have said, which they have, that this particular job has not been registered with them, how would a subsequent issue with the work be addressed? If the wiring proves to be pants or it just turns out wrongin some other way does this lack of registratio cause me problems later or it is ultimately up to the fella who issued the cert (or would it be the unqualified the installer or the corner cutting contractor?!)

 

[joinerjohn]

Just to throw a spanner in the works. A fairly local electrical installation company are registered with NICEIC
Only one person at the firm is NICEIC registered. The sparkies do all the testing etc and give this chap the readings etc so he can fill in and issue the certificate.
Would this technically be considered illegal too?
BTW, he very rarely (if ever)goes out to jobs and takes readings himself.

 

[1john]

Just to throw a spanner in the works. A fairly local electrical installation company are registered with NICEIC
Only one person at the firm is NICEIC registered. The sparkies do all the testing etc and give this chap the readings etc so he can fill in and issue the certificate.
Would this technically be considered illegal too?
BTW, he very rarely (if ever)goes out to jobs and takes readings himself.

No, completly different. That guy is the qualified supervisor, he will counter sign the certificate, the spark that did the testing / installation / design will also sign it.

As for the original post, this type of behavior is the biggest problem with the system, some cowboys are signing things off by people who havent got enough about them to be able to sign off their own work, is this the type of person you would want in your house?? I can do plumbing, would you let me install a boiler, gas fire and hob if I knew someone who could make up a certificate for it??

 

[Taylortwocities]

An additional question; if the registration body have said, which they have, that this particular job has not been registered with them, how would a subsequent issue with the work be addressed? If the wiring proves to be pants or it just turns out wrongin some other way does this lack of registratio cause me problems later or it is ultimately up to the fella who issued the cert (or would it be the unqualified the installer or the corner cutting contractor?!)

Not sure who the reg body is. Most provide a guarantee (6 years in the case of NAPIT) for workmanship. The first port of call for resolution of problems is who you paid your money to. If they can't or won't resolve problems then it is ultimately the registration body who will fix. Note this is for workmanship and not a 6-year guarantee of extractor fans etc!

They will not be interested if they have not been notified on the job, as you have identified.

Here's a link to NAPIT's customer complaints info. http://www.napit.org.uk/consumerComplaints.asp

 

[ericmark]

interesting problem so lets look at some points.
1) If the whole job is done under the control of the LABC there is no need for the scheme provider to be involved at all with the job.
2) Where the work is carried out under the direct control of the LABC then they are responsible for site safety. Although some one may produce an installation certificate it is at end of day down to the LABC as to if they accept the readings on the installation certificate or test themselves.
3) Unless there is something wrong with the installation then no authority is likely to be worried as to if paperwork was done in correct manor or not.

You have a completion certificate as to paperwork, at least bit that matters, it is correct, so as to selling no problems.

Unless there is something wrong with the installation then to try to do anything is a waist of time.

I feel the LABC get money for nothing and I would love to see the LABC taken to court in the same way as those involved with child welfare were. It would be nice to see people in these positions forced to do their jobs rather than being paid to rubber stamp work.

We all watch these builders from hell and see what they have got away with but the whole reason they get away with it is the LABC not doing their job.

However to take the LABC to task first you must be able to prove that due to their actions sub standard work was allowed to be completed without them finding out. From what you say the work is not sub standard so really you have nothing to complain about. All the LABC need to say is they have know the contractor for many years and never found sub standard work so on this time did not bother testing and since there were no faults found they were right to trust the contractor and so save public money.

So to conclude if what you tell us is correct you have no problems and neither does anyone else so not worth doing anything about a few over trustworthy actions.

However if there are faults then the story is completely different. So question must be are their any faults?