Part P Electrician required for extension?

[1290]

Hi all,

I have done some background research but I am still a little confused.

We have had Full Plans Approval for a 2 storey extension and kitchen extension (increasing size of the existing kitchen) from BC but I am confused as to who I can get to do the electrics.

If my understanding is correct a Part P (competent person register) need not notify BC before carrying out the work but does it through their registered body and issues a cert on completion.

Everyone else has (should) notify BC. Since we have notified BC and have had unconditional plans approval can I get a qualified spark who is not Part P to do the work, test, inspect etc and the issue an EIC? Will that comply with the requirement?

We are in Cherwell District and looking at their application for Full Plans approval all it asks is "Will you use a qualified electrician? Yes/No"
I can find no reference to Part P (competent person register) in their application form or in the supporting info they provide so presume that any qualified electrician meets the criteria.

Any pointers appreciated.

 

[Taylortwocities]

Everyone else has (should) notify BC. Since we have notified BC and have had unconditional plans approval can I get a qualified spark who is not Part P to do the work, test, inspect etc and the issue an EIC? Will that comply with the requirement?

.

If you take that route then Cherwell will want to charge you an extra large wedge to get one of their tame electricians to inspect the works and various intervals and will want to carry out the testing at the end. For them it is the same as you doing it yourself.

It will be much better, and cheaper for you to get an electrician who is registered with one of the Part P schemes to do this notifiable work for you.

You will have real problems getting Building Regs completion if you try any other route.

 

[1290]

Thanks for the reply, can you tell me where that is all detailed on the CDC website?
Part P is not mentioned anywhere only "Are you using a qualified electrician. Yes/No?"

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Why would they mention Part P?

Do they mention Part A? Part B? Part C?

etc?

They assume, quite reasonably, that in the same way you know that the structural aspects must comply with Part A, the fire safety aspects with Part B, and so on, that you also know that the electrical work must comply with Part P.

 

[1290]

BAS. I'm not disagreeing that it's fundamentally easier to use the guidance in the approved docs (in this case, Part P) to show compliance with the BRegs.
Nor am I spoiling for a fight.

What I'm saying is that in Part P it states:

"In the Secretary of State’s view, the requirements will be met by adherence to the ‘Fundamental Principles’ for achieving safety given in BS 7671:2001 Chapter 13. To achieve these requirements electrical installations must be:
a. designed and installed to afford appropriate protection against mechanical and thermal damage, and so that they do not present electric shock and fire hazards to people;
b. suitably inspected and tested to verify that they meet the relevant equipment and installation standards.
A way of satisfying the fundamental principles would be to follow:
a. the technical rules described in the body
of BS 7671:2001 as amended or in an equivalent standard approved by a member of the EEA; and
b. guidance given in installation manuals that are consistent with BS 7671:2001, such as:
i. the IEE (Institution of Electrical Engineers) On-Site Guide;
ii. the series of IEE Publications, Guidance Notes Nos 1 to 7."

So provided any electrician follows these guidance documents then the Secretary of State believes the installation will be in compliance with Part P?

According to Para 0.7 of the approved document, being "Part P registered" allows work to be carried out without notifying BC. Therefore,
If registered =====> no need to notify BC.
If not registered ==> Notify BC.

We have notified BC of the intention to carry out electrical work via Full Plans Approval which has been granted.

The Cherwell Application for Full Plans Approval states:
"Are you using a qualified electrician: Yes/No?" We stated "Yes".

So have notified BC and said I am using a qualified electrician who will carry out the installation etc as defined by the Sec. of State, I could satisfy the requirements of Part P.

I am aware that further on in Part P (page 11) it talks about certification. It states, if not Part P then BC will decide what (if any) further testing etc needs to be done. Note, if any. They don't have to require any further info.

Unlike some BC depts. CDC don't appear to make any distinction when you apply for Full Plan Approval. They ask only if the electrician is qualified. One presumes therefore that if you notify and tell them the electrician is qualified they (BC) are happy as they don't state what else is required to be done anywhere.

Nowhere can I find anything from CDC which states:

- Part P and qualified then x applies.
- Not Part P but qualified then y applies.
- Not Part P and not qualified z applies.

If you didn't know about part P registration, stuck in an application for Full Plans Approval, ticked the "electrician is qualified box" and got your approval, how would you know that you need to do anything other than get a qualified electrician to do the work and sign it off?

Rgds

 

[ban-all-sheds]

What I'm saying is that in Part P it states:

No it doesn't.

This is Part P:



What you are quoting from is Approved Document P, which provides guidance on ways to ensure compliance with Part P.

So provided any electrician follows these guidance documents then the Secretary of State believes the installation will be in compliance with Part P?

Yes, but that still leaves the issue of how do the council satisfy themselves that the work has been done properly? It's the same as all the other areas where there are requirements - you can promise to do things a certain way, you can say you're going to use the appropriate approved details etc, but the council will still want to come and inspect the work to satisfy themselves that you have made good on your promises and that they can therefore give you a piece of paper which certifies that you have.

According to Para 0.7 of the approved document, being "Part P registered"

It does not say that.

We have notified BC of the intention to carry out electrical work via Full Plans Approval which has been granted.

Indeed you have.

The Cherwell Application for Full Plans Approval states:
"Are you using a qualified electrician: Yes/No?" We stated "Yes".

Well, then strictly speaking they don't appear to be distinguishing between a qualified electrician and a qualified electrician who is registered with an electrical self certification scheme prescribed in Schedule 3

So have notified BC and said I am using a qualified electrician who will carry out the installation etc as defined by the Sec. of State, I have satisfied the requirements of Part P.

Indeed you have.

I am aware that further on in Part P (page 11)

No - that's not Part P, that's Approved Document P.

it talks about certification. It states if not Part P

No it doesn't.

This is not gratuitous pedantry.

It's because you are conflating Part P, notification, qualifications and competent person status that you are having problems understanding what the council are asking, and what the legal requirements are.

Unlike some BC depts. CDC don't appear to make any distinction when you apply for Full Plan Approval. They ask only if the electrician is qualified. One presumes therefore that if you notify and tell them the electrician is qualified they (BC) are happy as they don't state what else is required to be done anywhere.

OK, so you can carry on, and hope that they mean literally what they say on their forms, and hope you don't get into arguments or even legal action when it's all finished, or you could get confirmation from them now.

For the sake of an email, or better still a letter, asking for confirmation that you can have the electrical work done by an electrician who is qualified but not registered, I'd advise asking.

If you didn't know about part P registration, stuck in an application for Full Plans Approval, ticked the "electrician is qualified box" and got your approval, how would you know that you need to do anything other than get a qualified electrician to do the work and sign it off?

In the same way that you are expected to know about any laws which apply to anything you do.

Ignorantia juris non excusat

 

[1290]

Thanks for the reply and clarification of difference between the approved doc and the actual regulation - Part P.

My understanding is that the law requires that Part P of the building regulations is satisfied. I understand that requirement is as you have quoted? A way to achieve this is by following the guidance in approved document P?

I see nothing in Part P which requires the installation to done, tested, inspected & certified by a person who is a member of an electrical self certification scheme.

I can't see what law would be broken if I didn't use a registered person but the installation complied with Part P?

How the council decide that the requirement is met is not really up to me, if they don't distinguish between qualified and being a member of an electrical self certification scheme that's not really my fault. All they ask is that a qualified electrician is used......

You're right though, I wouldn't just take the advice from a forum. I'd already emailed them before my initial post. I was just interested in views...........

 

[ban-all-sheds]

My understanding is that the law requires that Part P of the building regulations is satisfied. I understand that requirement is as you have quoted? A way to achieve this is by following the guidance in approved document P?

Correct.

I see nothing in Part P which requires the installation to done, tested, inspected & certified by a person who is a member of an electrical self certification scheme.

That's because there is nothing.

I can't see what law would be broken if I didn't use a registered person but the installation complied with Part P?

In this situation, none. Generically there would be a law broken if the work was notifiable and it wasn't properly notified or done by a registered electrician.

How the council decide that the requirement is met is not really up to me, if they don't distinguish between qualified and being a member of an electrical self certification scheme that's not really my fault. All they ask is that a qualified electrician is used......

Indeed.

 

[davelx]

How the council decide that the requirement is met is not really up to me, if they don't distinguish between qualified and being a member of an electrical self certification scheme that's not really my fault. All they ask is that a qualified electrician is used......

Indeed.

That's what my council asked for. Then I asked them what they meant by "a qualified electrician", since I have an degree in electrical engineering and C&G 2381 (this was pre 17th). The answer was......

"an electrician who is a member of a part P self-certification scheme"

I gave up!