Advice or help please

[Bobby10]

Hi, I bought a house a few weeks ago and the electrics are all from the 1950s. It has porcelain fuses and brown rubber wiring.

Now it has had a shower fitted recently before i bought it. Should the work not have come with a certificate?. Also should the wiring etc not have been inspected and tested prior to me buying as I hear it can default your home insurance?.

Anyways we decided to get a house rewiring and its coming in at over £2000 for a 2 bed end terraced 2 story.

I was wondering how much of the work I could do myself do save money?.

Basically it needs

consumer unit.

New lighting circuit to lights and switches up and down stair

Smoke alarms fitted

Exterior light front and rear

2 extra sockets in 1 bedroom

All single sockets converted to doubles

Humidistat fan fitted

Cooker hood fitted

Door bell wired

Cooker switch and connector relocated

New ring for kitchen to supply a washing machine and tumble dryer

3 new double sockets in kitchen

The upstairs sockets also supply 2 sockets in the kitchen 1 for a fridge and the other unused at the minute. There is also a single socket already.

Just wondering how much I can do of this myself?. From Scotland.

In my current house the bath fan and smoke alarms run off the lighting circuit using 6a mcbs. Also the kitchen is run off upstairs sockets ring.

In my new house wiring would be

40A for cooker
50A Shower
32A downstair sockets
32A upstair sockets
32A kitchen sockets
6A upstair lights + bath fan (1mm or 1.5MM?)
6A downstair lights + smoke alarms (1mm or 1.5mm)
6A External lights?(Could this be put on downstairs lights?)(1 or 1.5mm?)
6A or 10A combi boiler?. (This will be fitted by gas company)

I was wondering about loads in teh consumer unit though. In my current house its a split load so there are 2 80A 30mA Rcds and a 100A main switch. Now the circuits running on each are less than the 80A.

However in the new house the loads on each RCD will be higher. Could be around 108A on an 80A RCD?. Is this ok?. I have seen some wired like this. Or would it be better to have the load less than the RCD?. So maybe have 3 RCDs?. Like at the minute the shower has its own 63A 30mA RCD and is on a 50A MCB.

Also for the kitchen there was going to be a new ring mains. There is 3 sockets in the kitchen already running off the upstair ring. The new ring would supply washing machine and tumble dryer and probably 2 double sockets for microwave and food processor, blenders etc. The existing sockets will be used for kettle and fridge/freezer.

Any help advice would be great. I know there are a lot of things I cannot touch but I was wondering what I can do. I have an electrician say he would wire my unit for £300.

There is a lot of raggling to do in the kitchen as its a concrete floor so cables come from above. Is it possible to run cables behind skirting or under cabinets in conduits above the concrete flooring?.

The attic is covered in metal conduit containing all the brown rubber wiring. So these will all have to be cut and the wires ran through the joists under insulation so these will need new conduit to run through?.

 

[flameport]

Now it has had a shower fitted recently before i bought it. Should the work not have come with a certificate?. Also should the wiring etc not have been inspected and tested prior to me buying as I hear it can default your home insurance?.

If you wanted it inspecting, it's up to you to arrange that. However in this case absolutely no point to any inspection, since 60 year old rubber wiring means it should have already been replaced 30 years ago.

Anyways we decided to get a house rewiring and its coming in at over £2000 for a 2 bed end terraced 2 story.

Prices in Scotland may well be lower than elsewhere, but that would be at the lower end of the prices for a rewire.

2 extra sockets in 1 bedroom
All single sockets converted to doubles
The upstairs sockets also supply 2 sockets in the kitchen 1 for a fridge and the other unused at the minute. There is also a single socket already.

If the wiring is 1950s rubber, it matters not what is already installed - it will all need to be removed. Even if it wasn't rubber, in such a small property it will be cheaper to start again with what you want, rather than hack around with old stuff.

New ring for kitchen to supply a washing machine and tumble dryer

A ring for one room in a 2 bed house?

Just wondering how much I can do of this myself?. From Scotland.

You may be able to do some of the work yourself, but this would require you discuss with the electrician exactly what can be done beforehand. Things such as cutting chases into walls etc. Given the small size of the property and the limited amount of work you could do yourself, it it highly unlikely to save any money.

40A for cooker
50A Shower
32A downstair sockets
32A upstair sockets
32A kitchen sockets
6A upstair lights + bath fan (1mm or 1.5MM?)
6A downstair lights + smoke alarms (1mm or 1.5mm)
6A External lights?(Could this be put on downstairs lights?)(1 or 1.5mm?)
6A or 10A combi boiler?. (This will be fitted by gas company)

No to all of that.
Cookers do not require 40A circuits.
Electric showers should only be used as a last resort when there really is no other option at all. Use the combination boiler for the shower - it will cost less and be vastly superior.
3x32A circuits for sockets in a 2 bed terrace is ridiculously overkill. Rings are also the work of Lucifer himself.
There is no need to split the lighting for up/down or in any other way.
1.5mm cable is a waste of money and makes installation more difficult.
Boilers and external lights do not require their own circuit.

In my current house its a split load so there are 2 80A 30mA Rcds and a 100A main switch.

The cheap-o-matic version, which doesn't comply with BS7671. Please don't consider such a useless arrangement for your new house.

 

[ericmark]

I was wondering how much of the work I could do myself do save money?.

Although Scottish rules are slightly different to Welsh rules there is no reason why you can't do is all yourself. The limit is your own ability.

But there are problems one major one is the cost and use of test equipment. At £75 per week to hire and around £750 to buy it's not cheap and also even electricians fail the C&G2391 exam on how to test and getting it wrong is dangerous.

So in real terms you need some one on board to inspect test and give advice even if you fill in the test certificate and this is the real problem with DIY.

An electrician does not want to call in every day for a month looking at your work as a job so you would need one who visits as a friend I am sure if you had one you would be asking him not posting on here.

My son for a short time worked as a sole trader electrician and like many more I am sure agreed on one job to let the owner do the donkey work and as a result a reduced price. However he then said never again he would arrange to return on a date and the preparation work was not completed no other work booked in for that day so either he did the lot or he lost a days work. To be frank using a twin blade cutter chasing the wall is not a long job. It may be with hammer and chisel but the electrician will only use them for bits the cutter will not reach.

I am sure other electricians have similar tails of woe where they have tried to allow the house owner to help and as a result finding an electrician who will allow you to prepare the walls is rare. If they will it will be on an hourly rate so if you have not done what was required they are still paid. This means open cheque book and although you could save also it could cost you more.

To agree to make good after i.e. you plaster up chase is common to reduce costs.

Time is also important my son when sole trading had a change in his home situation and decided he needed to go cards in and although he finished off the jobs he could where jobs had the first fix done but were not ready for second fix within the month he had agreed with new employer then he was forced to leave them uncompleted. He had told new employer he needed to give a months notice and all work should have been completed within that time but two jobs did not have the other work like plastering completed and his new contract banned doing electrical work on the side.

The two unfinished jobs had both been going over a year where the owner was doing up there house bit at a time and he clearly could not fit sockets on a wall which was missing.

He is now doing his own house as DIY and this has been going on for a year with ceilings removed to allow wiring and plumbing but he will sign the installation certificate and submit it to LABC and in real terms that is what the provision to do DIY is for. It is so an electrician who is not a scheme member can do domestic work it is not really designed for Joe public to do his own work.

For the work you have listed the price seems rather cheap and I would not think you will gain enough to be worth while trying to DIY.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

You should have arranged for report to be made on installation prior to purchase, there would have likely been some mention of it in paperwork you received during procedures prior to you purchasing the house, that would have mentioned of the condition or possible condition of the electrics, normally comes up on the survey.
Personally I would let the electrician get on with it, you are not likely to save much by doing any of the preparation work for cables. Might be a good idea to remove furniture and carpets and give the electrician a clear run, they may knock a little off this, if the property is currently populated by these items.

You don,t really need three 32A Ring finals circuits.
I would suggest with a standard sized two bedroom, 2 storey, terrace:
Kitchen 32A radial or ring (4.00mm or 2.5mm T&E cable)
Cooker circuit 32A (if your cooking appliances do not exceed 15kW) (6.00mm)
Downstairs sockets 20A radial (2.5mm)
Upstairs sockets 20A radial (2.5mm)
Downstairs lights 6A with outside lights connected via two pole switches and smoke alarms connected to this circuit and interlinked(1.00mm)
Upstairs lights 6A with bathroom ex-fan connected (1.00mm)
Combi boiler 6A (1.5mm) on own circuit, if you can put this on it's own RCBO or a circuit that can exclude RCD protection, I would recommend this.
If combi boiler being installed, go for thermostatic shower rather than electric.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In my current house its a split load so there are 2 80A 30mA Rcds and a 100A main switch.

The cheap-o-matic version, which doesn't comply with BS7671.

In what way?

 

[Bobby10]

Thanks everyone for getting back to me.

We are really really tight for money. I had to sell my car to get a downpayment for the property.

The house at the minute is totally stripped out there is nothing in it and the kitchen walls are ready for running cables.

We really cannot afford £100 never mind £2000. We know someone who can install the consumer unit to the mains and test all the circuits.

I am good with my hands and good at maths and physics. I reckon if I was told what to do I could do it no problem. Obviously I am no electrician though so the consumer unit would need to be done by a qualified electrician and all circuits checked by them.

I looked at the current layout of the new (old) house. Its a 1950s house.

1 ring running to single hall socket, 2 single sockets in living room and 1 double socket in living room. This is on a 15A or 20A ceramic fuse.

1 ring for upstair. This seems to go into a large brown junction box then there are 3 wires coming out. 1 going to a double socket, 1 going up into the attic but cant see what its connected to, 1 going to a kitchen double socket(with spur to single socket) which then continues on the ring to 2 single switches in back bedroom and 2 singles in front bedroom then back to the fusebox. Again a 15A or 20A ceramic fuse

There is also a wire comes up and goes into a junction box to the immersion heater control in the kitchen and then to the hot water tank.

There was a thin wire coming from the hot water cylinder looks like a 1.5mm but it was just lying under the floor not connected.

The shower is on 10mm cable coming up from rcd box on a 50A mcb and protected by a 63A RCD.

The cooker looks like 10mm its older wiring red and black and has 1000V written on it. This goes to a 30A ceramic fuse.

That is pretty much the whole circuit the way it stands from top of my head.

So would I be better ripping it all out and starting again?. Or just extend the downstair ring for the kitchen?. I see where they start and end.

Just seems a bit more work to rip out everything just to put it all back?.

I thought that split Consumer units were what all new properties are fitted with?. Certainly most I have seen have a split load so you have circuits protected by a 63A or 80A 30mA RCD then your 100A main switch?.

Also I have heard pros and cons for ring and radial circuits. The ring is already in place though and the council have plastered the wires into the walls so to rip them out I would need to raggle all the walls. If I use the existing wiring I can just extend the ring.

So in order to extend the ring for upstairs I could add the 1 socket to back bedroom and 2 sockets to front bedroom and keep the ring?.

Downstair I could extend into kitchen and have an extra 3 double sockets on it.

I was going to wire grid switches for washing machine, tumble dryer, worktop lights and fridge/freezer. So can these be added onto the ring for downstair too?.

Does a ring circuit not take up to 7kw or so?. All the appliances would not be on at once though.

If a split load consumer unit is no use then what would be suggestions?.

The shower is already in place and to replace it would be more expense. However there is a combi boiler and central heating system going into the property so would it be recommended to buy one suitable to hook into this?.

Also the guy fitting the central heating system suggested I do not put my radiators under the windows but thats where most are up where I stay as it reduces condensation forming on the windows.

 

[winston1]

Can't see why a combi boiler needs its own circuit. A fused spur at 3amps is all that is required.

Fridge, washing machine, and tumble dryer don't need grid switches. Just a 13amp socket to plug them into.

Under the windows is the best place for radiators. Anywhere else and there will be cold drafts around the room as cold air falls from the windows and travels across the room. Poor plumbers suggest putting them back to back on party walls to reduce piping and cost, don't use a poor plumber.

 

[Bobby10]

cheers for getting back. I thought as much in regards to the radiators.

As for the fridge/freezer, worktop lights, washing machine and tumble dryer the grid switches were more for visual reasons.

My wife wanted the switches with the names of the appliance on them. Is it not similar to a 13A above the counter?.

Like you have the unswitched socket behind each appliance then the grid switch above the worktops to control them?.

I just do not know what is legal to do in Scotland in terms of wiring. I would think adding a socket and a ceiling light would be ok.

But what about rewiring an entire lighting circuit, installing smoke alarms, installing door bell.

Some people said rip out all the old wires and replace all with new wires?. Could you not just add to the existing socket ring circuit as there is only 4 sockets on the downstair ring. Its wired in red/black and earth. Not the latest brown and blue with earth.

In a dispute with the seller of the house at them moment in regards to the ancient light wiring in the property and the fact it had a recent shower fitted. There was no certificate or building control compliance. The fact that the bathroom light has the old rubber wire in the ceiling rose but latest wiring in the light switch so someone obviously has updated the wiring but left the old wiring.

 

[winston1]

In a dispute with the seller of the house at them moment in regards to the ancient light wiring in the property and the fact it had a recent shower fitted. There was no certificate or building control compliance. The fact that the bathroom light has the old rubber wire in the ceiling rose but latest wiring in the light switch so someone obviously has updated the wiring but left the old wiring.

It's a bit late for that, your solicitor should have sorted that before you signed on the dotted line.

If the alterations including the shower were done before 1st Jan 2005 no certificate or building control compliance is required.

 

[Bobby10]

I do not know when shower was fitted I will look at the RCD box maybe there is a date on it.

Was reading http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/217736/0092252.pdf

seems that you can pretty much rewire your whole house in Scotland without needing any certificates or contacting building control.

You can do showers, boilers, fans, smoke alarms, sockets and the rest.

So I guess I could rewire my home and keep the costs down. I really do not have £2000 to pay for a rewire.

If I were installing new circuits they would not be connected to any source of power so would be safe to work on.

All the fuses are removed from the fuse box and the switch is off so should be safe to remove old wiring.

My solicitor was made aware of the wiring when i viewed the property and they said property is sold as seen. There is a period of time after moving into the property to raise a grievance. 21 days or so. So should be fine as I did make them aware during the sale.

 

[JohnW2]

In a dispute with the seller of the house at them moment in regards to the ancient light wiring in the property and the fact it had a recent shower fitted. There was no certificate or building control compliance. The fact that the bathroom light has the old rubber wire in the ceiling rose but latest wiring in the light switch so someone obviously has updated the wiring but left the old wiring.

It's a bit late for that, your solicitor should have sorted that before you signed on the dotted line.

Indeed, and it's not obvious what grounds for dispute there would have been, even if it had been raised in time. Ancient light wiring is ancient light wiring, which was present in the house which the OP chose to purchase (presumably without having an electrical inspection undertaken). As for the 'recent' shower, there would only be grounds for a 'dispute' if the vendor had (falsely) denied on the enquiry form that electrical work had been undertaken since 1st Jan 2005 - the fact that the work (if admitted) had been undertaken without required BC notification would not, in itself, have been grounds for any dispute (again, unless the vendor had lied and claimed that there was a BC completion certificate for the work, when there wasn't).

The OP has fairly obviously bought a property that needs a complete re-wire, and I imagine that must have been fairly obvious before he bought it, even to an untrained eye - but if he didn't trust his eye, he should have had an electrical inspection undertaken before he decided to purchase. Caveat emptor!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

My solicitor was made aware of the wiring when i viewed the property and they said property is sold as seen. There is a period of time after moving into the property to raise a grievance. 21 days or so. So should be fine as I did make them aware during the sale.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't quite understand how there can be grounds for a 'grievance' if the issue was raised with the venor prior to purchase, they responded that it was being sold 'as seen' and you then proceeded with the purchase, in the knowledge of what they has said.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So would I be better ripping it all out and starting again?. Or just extend the downstair ring for the kitchen?. I see where they start and end.

Just seems a bit more work to rip out everything just to put it all back?.

Err...

the electrics are all from the 1950s. It has porcelain fuses and brown rubber wiring.

Keeping/extending is not an option. It all has to come out.


You need to learn how to go about deciding what cable and protective device to use for a circuit to supply a given load, whether diversity applies, whether RCD protection is required, how the way in which you install cables affects how much current they can carry, how to allow for voltage drop, how to ensure your fault loop impedance will be OK.

You need to find out which circuits can be ring finals and which cannot, and what the advantages and disadvantages of each are, and decide for your installation which you would prefer.

You need to decide which of the two main lighting circuit topologies you want to use.

You need to learn about the 3 different types of domestic single-phase supplies provided in this country, how to recognise them, and what differences each make to the requirements for the rest of the installation, particularly any outdoor supplies.

You need to learn the rules concerning cables concealed in walls, partitions and under floors and run outdoors, buried in the ground or overhead.

You really ought to be able to do testing yourself, or you could rack up electrician'd fees quickly if you have screwed up.

Asking questions here can be a useful part of a learning process, but they are not a substitute for proper structured studying. The key term there is "learning process" - you cannot learn all the things you need to know just by asking questions here. It isn't structured enough - it won't provide you with a way to progress where each step builds on what you learned before.

You can't carry out a job of this magnitude by asking whatever questions happen to occur to you. You've already shown that you have some dodgy misconceptions - what if you get something wrong because you have no idea your knowledge is wrong? What if you miss something because you simply have no idea it even exists, and just don't realise you don't know it?

• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:books
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/electricity.html
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/domesticinstallations.html
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/1.1.htm[/list]I suggest you get stuck into the last link right away - it won't give you design ideas, and unfortunately it doesn't refer to the current edition of the Wiring Regulations, but it's free, and will still give you a good grounding which you can augment with more up to date publications.

 

[Bobby10]

Its comlplicated. Probably end up rewiring house myself and just not bothering about the solicitor or sellers solicitors. Its a long story and just a bit of a mess.

I am quite happy now that the electrics and gas have been made safe and I have a working socket. At least I can get on and do things.

Not very happy that I have to rewire the house though.

So now its just a case of finding out what would be the best way to do it. Ring circuits or radials, split load unit or what?, rip out existing red/black twin and earth ring circuits and replace or just add to them.

Should I buy a mixer shower and rip out the electric shower seen as I am getting a combi?.

Reroute the cooker circuit or run a new one?.

These are teh questions.

Oh and I asked about the ratings of RCDs too. However if I took out the shower this would not be an issue. As would just have 2 x 32A for up and down sockets, 1x 32A for cooker, 2x6a for up and down lights.

Does not seem like much?.

 

[JohnW2]

Its comlplicated. Probably end up rewiring house myself and just not bothering about the solicitor or sellers solicitors. Its a long story and just a bit of a mess.

It does, indeed, sound like an awful mess, if you've bought a house which clearly needs wriring without even realising that.

Probably end up rewiring house myself ... So now its just a case of finding out what would be the best way to do it. Ring circuits or radials, split load unit or what?, rip out existing red/black twin and earth ring circuits and replace or just add to them. ... Should I .... ?

I'm afraid that you seriously underestimate that 'just'. As has been pointed out to you, someone who needs to ask those questions really needs either professional assistance or an awful lot of training/studying before they can sensibly contemplate re-wiring a house.

Oh and I asked about the ratings of RCDs too. However if I took out the shower this would not be an issue. As would just have 2 x 32A for up and down sockets, 1x 32A for cooker, 2x6a for up and down lights.

That's the least of your problems, but another illustration that you really don't have enough knowledge to be contemplating the task. If you add up the maximum current loads of all of your circuits, you'll end up with horrendous numbers, but those circuits won't be all working 'flat out' simultaneously. Don't forget that the supplier's fuse for your whole electrical installation is probably only 60A or 80A. 80A RCDs would be fine.

... but, as above, you really do need to re-think your approach to this whole task.

Kind Regards, John