Advice or help please

[Bobby10]

Hi, thanks for all your comments. I am fully aware that it is not an easy task. Never said it was.

However as I often find with tradesmen they will often make things a lot more complicated than they are just to show that they know best and every job in the house the builders, joiners, electricians, plumbers all say you need a professional to do it. I agree to the fact it would be easier to get a professional in yes but it costs an arm and a leg.

I am sure I could read up enough combined with my physics understanding current and voltage on circuits im sure I could work it out.

It is really only the lighting circuit that needs fully replaced.

The 2 rings up and down could be extended to supply the extra sockets. I am just adding 3 sockets to the upstair ring. I know where the feed comes from the fusebox and where it returns.

Downstair I was looking to add 4 sockets. I know where ring starts and ends too.

The cooker circuit needs rerouted. It is actually going to be closer to the fusebox so the cable will be slightly shorter.

Might get a mixer shower.

I was going to leave the consumer unit to a qualified electrician.

I know plenty of people who have added sockets etc to their home themselves.

What questions am I asking that would make it seem I do not know anything?.

I know that there is far more sockets on 1 ring in my current house than in my new house. So adding 3 sockets to the ring in new house should not be an issue as they are in the bedrooms and will barely be used. Definately not all at once. I was going to incorporate them on the ring mains rather than spur off sockets. Or I could use junction boxes.

I am not saying I know 100% what I am doing but I have people I can ask for anything I am not sure of.

The automatic response from tradesmen are you cannot do it and its not simply this or that. Thats where they make their money.

I know an electrician who charged a friend of mines mum £85 to install a bathroom light. Basically taking the ceiling rose off and fitting a waterproof round light in its place. No other work at all.

I know that £2000 for a house rewire may seem a good deal to an electrician but for me I look at the fact I am buying all fixture and fittings and raggling all runs for cables. So all the electrician is doing is supplying wire and a consumer unit and running the cables.

I could get all the sockets, light fittings, fan, cooker hood, wire, consumer unit, smoke alarms, door bell all for under £300. So it would cost me £1700 for someone to run the cables and test.

Be just like physics where you do circuits with lights and resistors and fuses etc, Or electronic construction where you build circuits using resistors and switches but on a larger scale.

I also got told by mechanic that it would be £1200 to do a service on my old e39. This was, brake discs and pads all round, oil filter and oil change, fuel filter, air filter, pollen filters, spark plugs, rocker cover gasket, spark plug seals, swirl flap modification. I bought all the parts for £300 and did it myself. Garage said they would need to do it and I could not do it.

Same as hanging doors, or installing door frames a joiner will say its not just a case of a few screws and nails but in fact it is. That and a bit of patience a pencil and spirit level.

Im sure most people can do most things once they are shown or read how to do it. electricians did not know how to do it before they read up and learned. I can read up and learn. It is only a small house there is no large runs of cables or huge amounts of sockets or lights.

I would have it checked and tested on completion so if there was any mistakes then I am sure they would know. Cannot be any worse than the so called electricians that fitted the additions to the electrics already. There are a few good tradesmen but in my experience most are cowboys and always take the cheap and cheerful and easy shortcut options but still charge the client full whack.

 

[Maxatoria]

If you hate tradesmen then do it all yourself and hope its all safe, might be worth checking your building insurance to see what they'd pay out should you f-it all up and burn the place down (in the worst scenario)

If you want a proper job you pay proper money...and if you decide to sell the place on in a few years you'll have the paperwork which will mean easier sale and no arguing that they want to knock 5k off the price for a rewire that would of cost you 2k

but at the end of the day its your house and if you want to do a potentially bodge job to save a few quid then go ahead

 

[securespark]

In my current house its a split load so there are 2 80A 30mA Rcds and a 100A main switch.

The cheap-o-matic version, which doesn't comply with BS7671.

In what way?

Manufacturers have "conspired" to produce the split-load board (whether "16th" or "17th" Ed.) as a reasonably priced means of giving RCD protection to many circuits while at the same time attempting to comply with 314.

Over the years, it has been accepted, but many feel that strictly, it does not comply with the letter of the regulations.

Flameport, while we're on 314, why do you recommend not having separate lighting circuits for each floor?

There's no reason why not to put the boiler on its own circuit. If the kitchen circuit went down, at least the heating would be unaffected.

And, as it is a small house, I would not bother with ring finals (even in larger properties I'm not a fan). I'd just fit radials. 20A 2.5mm² & 30A 4 mm².

 

[Bobby10]

Would hardly say its to save a few quid. £1700 + is not a few quid to most people.

This is exactly what i mean with people presuming that people are useless and cannot screw in a light bulb.

Obviously I would not be doing a bodge job as it is my own house and I know a few electricians who can basically tell me exactly what I need to do and i can do it.

It is not rocket science. Almost anyone can add a socket outlet. The boiler wil lbe fitted by the gas people so dont have to worry about that. I am sure they will upgrade the earth cables to the gas and electric when they install it. Or if not I will be telling them to.

I came here for a bit of advice not to be told I have no knowledge and I cannot do it. Or that I will make a bodge job to save a few quid.

I would make sure it was done to high standards using all the correct cable diameters and correct type of cables. Also the correct Mcbs or Rcds. I would ask first and get it all confirmed before doing it.

I sort of knew this would be the response of most. Get an electrician basically. Well if I was on an electricians salary then perhaps I could afford to. Unfortunately I am not so I would like to try and do as much as I can myself. Also the fact that almost all trades people I have contacted appear to be busy right through till December. Most just don't even bother to call back.

I have nothing against tradesmen. I know several who I would trust and do a good job. I was just saying there are a lot of cowboys out there. Like the plumbers who came and said not to install the heaters under the windows.

 

[JohnW2]

Manufacturers have "conspired" to produce the split-load board (whether "16th" or "17th" Ed.) as a reasonably priced means of giving RCD protection to many circuits while at the same time attempting to comply with 314. ... Over the years, it has been accepted, but many feel that strictly, it does not comply with the letter of the regulations.

Who are these 'many'? - the vast majority of electricians seem quite happy to fit dual RCD CUs and sign a declaration that they believe that such an installation is complaint with BS7671 (including 314). Are you suggesting that all-RCBO CUs (with lots of RCBOs, and not much on each of them) are the only approach which is 314-compliant?

As for 'complying with the letter of 314', that 'letter' is so vague and ill-defined that it's always going to be a very subjective matter of opinion, isn't it?

Flameport, while we're on 314, why do you recommend not having separate lighting circuits for each floor?

I'd like to know the answer to that, too - for a single fault to be able to take out all the lighting in a house is surely going to be regarded as non-compliant with 314 by a high proportion of people, isn't it?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Manufacturers have "conspired" to produce the split-load board (whether "16th" or "17th" Ed.) as a reasonably priced means of giving RCD protection to many circuits while at the same time attempting to comply with 314.

Over the years, it has been accepted, but many feel that strictly, it does not comply with the letter of the regulations.

Remember that the context is a single-family occupancy house, and that 314 talks about taking account of hazards etc. I don't see that it's clear cut that 2 RCDs is a non-compliance. Particularly if there's a non-RCD section where you can use RCBOs for socket circuits to mitigate the problem of so many leaky things plugged in these days.

There's no reason why not to put the boiler on its own circuit. If the kitchen circuit went down, at least the heating would be unaffected.

I'd put it on its own circuit, on a section of a board, or a separate board, which has a transfer switch to allow a generator to supply some circuits.

And, as it is a small house, I would not bother with ring finals (even in larger properties I'm not a fan)

I'm not a fan anywhere.

 

[winston1]

In my current house its a split load so there are 2 80A 30mA Rcds and a 100A main switch.

The cheap-o-matic version, which doesn't comply with BS7671.

In what way?

There's no reason why not to put the boiler on its own circuit. If the kitchen circuit went down, at least the heating would be unaffected.

Additional cost and complexity. There is no reason not to put every socket on its own circuit either.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Would hardly say its to save a few quid. £1700 + is not a few quid to most people.

Indeed not, but you do need to invest (mostly time) to be able to reap that £1700. Unlike most other DIY activites, e.g. painting, where a few runs and brush hairs are just a blemish, or wallpapering where pattern misalignment is ditto, when it comes to rewiring a house you simply cannot be any less competent than a professional electrician.

This is exactly what i mean with people presuming that people are useless and cannot screw in a light bulb.

Nobody has suggested you are, and there is nothing to suggest that you could not acquire the necessary competence. But you must acquire it.

It is not rocket science. Almost anyone can add a socket outlet.

The problem there is that as soon as you say something like that it shows that you really don't grasp how much more there is to it than just adding socket outlets.

I came here for a bit of advice not to be told I have no knowledge and I cannot do it.

I think what you've been told is that you have insufficient knowledge to be able to do it right now.

Or that I will make a bodge job to save a few quid.

There's a significant risk of that if you don't take on board the fact that there is more to know and understand than you currently think there is.

I would make sure it was done to high standards using all the correct cable diameters and correct type of cables. Also the correct Mcbs or Rcds. I would ask first and get it all confirmed before doing it.

Ask who?

Who is going to sign the EIC for design?

If you want to do the design you have to learn how to do it, you can't ask other people to do it for you.

I sort of knew this would be the response of most. Get an electrician basically.

My response, basically, was "go off and learn how to do it".

Well if I was on an electricians salary then perhaps I could afford to. Unfortunately I am not so I would like to try and do as much as I can myself.

You have 3 choices.

1) Have an electrician do it.

2) Study until you are competent.

3) Engage an electrician who is happy to take responsibility for the whole thing whilst allowing you to do the labouring under his supervision and direction.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Additional cost and complexity.

Care to quantify those issues?

 

[winston1]

Additional cost and complexity.

Care to quantify those issues?

Pretty obvious isn't it. You need an additional MCB, possibly the next size up consumer unit to house it, additional cabling from that unit to the boiler.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

And the cost of that, set against the inconvenience of no CH in a Scottish winter because a rogue F/F trips an RCD at random is.....?

 

[Bobby10]

Yes i would not like to be without heating in a winter up here. I will be mentioning to the gas fitters to put it on its own circuit.

Don't know if they will or not.

As for wiring the house myself. I would not touch a consumer unit or connect it to mains. I would really like to pay my electrician to come out and do it for me but we simply do not have the money.

The majority of the wiring is staying as is. The sockets are on a ring 1 up and 1 down. They are 2.5mm red/black and earth cables.

There are only 3 single sockets and a double socket running off downstair ring. So I was thinking of extending this into the kitchen.

The upstair ring supplies 4 single sockets upstair and 2 double sockets in the kitchen. There is a spur off 1 of these to a single socket.

I looked under the floorboards and traced the route of all cables. I could draw a circuit diagram of what is in at the minute and what I was planning on doing.

If I could afford it beleive me I would happily pay for someone else to do the work. Same goes for fitting the kitchen and bathroom and fitting new doors and building partitions for built in wardrobes. If I could afford it I would definitely pay someone.

Not to mention raggling out routes for cables and trunking then plastering then painting. Probably wallpaper too. Whatever else the wife decides.

It is not through choice it is through having no real alternative but to try do as much as i possibly can within reason to save money.

The car has already gone to pay for heating and kitchen and carpets. I was thinking that a rewire would have been in region of £400 to £800.

Ah well how things have changed. Don't seem to get many homers or mates rates anymore. I got about 50 metres of fencing for £30 back in the day as it was getting chucked by council. Also got a wooden garage for £40. Now a garden shed is about £400. Total madness.

Carpet fitters and kitchen fitters are very expensive too. I was quoted £1500 to install my kitchen. that was just to put in the cabinets and worktop not wiring.

 

[flameport]

Flameport, while we're on 314, why do you recommend not having separate lighting circuits for each floor?

It's a 2 bed house - so only 3 rooms up and down, rather wasteful to have separate circuits for each floor.

There is nothing to be gained in safety from and up/down split either - if one circuit fails, that floor will still be totally dark.
Even in the situation of a circuit failing while someone is walking up stairs, it will still be dark, as it's likely only the staircase light would be on.

Dual RCD boards really do not comply, since a fault on one circuit will affect several others. It makes it virtually impossible for the occupiers of the property to identify where a fault actually is, as shown by the countless threads on this forum where RCDs trip for apparently no reason.
Then there are the others where people switch off an MCB, remove sockets or whatever and cause the RCD to trip because they connected N&E together when removing the socket.

 

[flameport]

the vast majority of electricians seem quite happy to fit dual RCD CUs and sign a declaration that they believe that such an installation is complaint with BS7671 (including 314).

Absolutely true - but these individuals are also the ones who always install everything else in the exact same way, with no consideration as to whether it is actually appropriate or not. They are only doing so because that's they way they were taught / have always done it like that / the manufacturer said so / the man from the scheme, union, whatever said it was the right thing to do.

It's the difference between those who just install standard stuff regardless, and those who actually make an effort with design.

 

[JohnW2]

It's a 2 bed house - so only 3 rooms up and down, rather wasteful to have separate circuits for each floor. There is nothing to be gained in safety from and up/down split either - if one circuit fails, that floor will still be totally dark.

I don't really agree with that. In most small houses, a light in hall or landing will give enough relief from total darkness on the 'other' floor to facilitate relatively safe movement around the house and, in particular, safe movement up/down the stairs. Those (seemingly like yourself) who are inclined to interpret 314 very widely could well argue that a single lighting circuit is non-compliant with 314.1(iii).

Dual RCD boards really do not comply, since a fault on one circuit will affect several others.

As I wrote earlier, it's very much a matter of opinion/interpretation as to what is, and is not, compliant with 314. In fact, if one is pedantic and takes 314 literally, together with the BS7671 definition of 'a circuit', the RCD issue doesn't even come into it. 314 starts by saying that every installation should be divided into circuits, to ...", and 'a circuit' is defined as that which is protected by a common OPD - so, in terms of the letter of the regs, even with a single RCD protecting everything, one could argue that one was compliant with 314 because the installation had been 'divided into circuits' (each with its own MCB). Despite the way in which electricians, followed by CU manufacturers, have chosen to interpret 314 (not unreasonably,in view of the probable intent), it does not actually say anything at all about 'common protective devices'.

Such a literal interpretation is obviously silly, and is just another example of the potential consequences of a bady worded regulation. However, even if one consider the probable intent, rather than the word, of the regs, it still comes mainly down to the very subjective judgement as to what constitutes 'minimising inconvenience', and I think one needs to keep this in perspective. I have been living for nearly 30 years with multiple banks of circuits, each protected by common RCDs (probably an average of 5 final circuits per RCD), and I cannot honestly say that I have ever been significantly 'inconvenienced', let alone put in danger, by the operation of an RCD (which, in itself, has been an incredibly infrequent occurrence).

In passing, I wonder if you feel that all submains which serve more than one final circuit are non compliant?

Kind Regards, John