Air Vent - Is This Illegal?

He has hardly encouraged faith in his abilities has he. Could you rely on the fact that he hasn't missed anything else that required urgent attention?

For christ's sake the man was there to fix a fault, do you expect him to do a complete check and report on the whole house. He missed the fault fair enough, no'one's perfect and it was more than likely buried under a mountain of stuff in the cupboard (usually the way).

This failing also reflects badly on the trade as a whole and if "having a go" as dmitch071 refers to it means ensuring this engineer is up to the task in the future then "have a go" is what more people should do!

t*t
 
For christ's sake the man was there to fix a fault, do you expect him to do a complete check and report on the whole house. He missed the fault fair enough, no'one's perfect and it was more than likely buried under a mountain of stuff in the cupboard (usually the way).

No, just the boiler. The rest is an excuse for poor service.


Whatever!
 
if the air vent mesures up to be of adequate size it doesnt matter,because as its situated behind a radiator is classed as not to current standards regardless of whether it hasnt been a problem for however may years.

So how do you check the inside vent is the correct size if its behind a radiator?

That air vent is not adaequate ,so it does matter.
 
Shame his competence didn't match his diligence don't you think!

nickso said:
forget his incompetence as a faultfinder for one moment

:roll:


Whilst I applaud efforts to protect us house holders from the perils of CO2...........then partially redeemed himself by pointing out a required change under the Regs.

oh yes, the cheeky bit. changing your tune a bit arent you.


the point I would make is that the said "engineer" failed completely at his first task

i will completely agree that he failed to find the fault and the mind boggles as to how he didnt find it if it was 6" away as the OP has said, but as neither of us are actually there lets not make any wild statements about his ability shall we.

his "first task" as you put it, was to find a fault on a system and carry out his normal safety checks that he has to do on every occasion. i note you seem to be willing to pass on the abilities of the previous 3 engineers who dont seem to have done their job properly.

He has hardly encouraged faith in his abilities has he. Could you rely on the fact that he hasn't missed anything else that required urgent attention?

in that he seems to be fairly diligent on safety he certainly has encouraged faith in his abilities. in that he didnt find a seemingly easy fault, no he hasnt. which would you prefer him to be more proficient in?

This failing also reflects badly on the trade as a whole and if "having a go" as dmitch071 refers to it means ensuring this engineer is up to the task in the future then "have a go" is what more people should do!

you have completely missed his point, and seem to be living up to be the classic customer who probably has no idea what he is talking about yet still wants to have a 1/2 hour argument about it. do you know what you are talking about?
 
VENTILATION
Ventilation air Supply to BS 5440 Part 2 is required. The
permanent ventilation area size requirements are:
SP3/VP3 & 45/4 68.54cm2 (10.62in2)
SP3/VP3 & 57/4 89.15cm2 (13.82in2)
The permanent vent may be directly into the room containing
the appliance. The vent may also be sited in another room
provided an interconnecting vent is used. The vent must not
be installed inside the builders opening. The vent should be
sited following good practice for a habitable room.
We recommend the use of the Stadium BM720 ‘Black Hole’
ventilator which is available from your local merchant.
 
For christ's sake the man was there to fix a fault, do you expect him to do a complete check and report on the whole house. He missed the fault fair enough, no'one's perfect and it was more than likely buried under a mountain of stuff in the cupboard (usually the way).

No, just the boiler. The rest is an excuse for poor service.

the fault wasnt on the boiler. mistakes happen.
 
living up to be the classic customer who probably has no idea what he is talking about

I think that is blatently obvious by the reference to CO2 and not CO
 
Good photo, any chance of two more photo's, one of the vent behind the radiator and one of the repaired cable showing it 6" away from the Smartfit this should clear up any confusion fairly quickly.
 
The engineer was obliged to point out the inadequate air vent and did just what he was required to do under the regs.




Those terracotta vents normally taper down to next to nothing on the unexposed side and are virtually guaranteed not to be sleeved.




As it stands any vent which is over 39% of the free area required is deemed NCS and can be left on until July, can anyone explain to me how this is allowed under any circumstances until then?


If the powers to be have us running around like idiots calculating vent sizes all over the place because it is so vital to safety how the hell can they turn round and tell us that we can currently leave on an appliacence that has only 39% of the supposed requirement?




Surely this customer should be screaming at all the other engineers who have serviced or worked on this boiler in the past and never mentioned the inadequate vent.



As an engineer who day after day after day is fed up of putting right or condemning cowboys work I get absolutely furious with householders who start whining at those of us who are trying to do our job correctly by pointing out this sort of stuff, whilst the negligent installers who have worked on the appliances in the past get off unscathed by householders who are too dim to aportion blame in the right direction.
 
As it stands any vent which is over 39% of the free area required is deemed NCS and can be left on until July, can anyone explain to me how this is allowed under any circumstances until then?

Not quite right - anything less than correct is only ncs unless spilling, until July. Then it's AR and a DO NOT USE notice

Mr OP and others being critical about the vent size, try reading the instructions, it's YOUR appliance. :roll:
I'll bet a quid the wire is hidden and more than 6" from the unit. He made a mistake, but none of us is psychic. Smartfit systems aren't common and don't use standard connections
 
Reading between the lines:
So much junk in the cupboard that you can barely get in.
Bell wire cut by falling shelf, wiring not correctly installed nor adequately protected.
Protect against perils of co2, op has no idea what he is on about, co2 is not toxic, more accurately: without it we would not be here.
 
Protect against perils of co2, op has no idea what he is on about, co2 is not toxic, more accurately: without it we would not be here.

Not strictly true:

This document discusses the toxicity and exposure limits for exposure to carbon dioxide gas (CO2). We give references and explanation regarding Toxicity of Carbon Dioxide, based on literature search and search on Compuserve's Safety Forum by Dan Friedman. This is background information, obtained from expert sources. This text may assist readers in understanding these topics. However it should by no means be considered complete nor authoritative. Seek prompt advice from your doctor or health/safety experts if you have any reason to be concerned about exposure to toxic gases.

Links on this page also direct the reader to carbon monoxide gas information in a separate document. IF YOU SUSPECT ANY BUILDING GAS-RELATED POISONING GO INTO FRESH AIR IMMEDIATELY and get others out of the building, then call your fire department or emergency services for help. © Copyright 2007 Daniel Friedman, All Rights Reserved. Information Accuracy & Bias Pledge is at below-left. Use the links at page left to navigate this document or to go to Other Website Topics. Green links at left show where you are in our document & website.
Photograph of a Drager hand pump used to measure carbon dioxide levels in the environment. CO2 POISONING SYMPTOMS - Carbon Dioxide poisoning symptoms

The photo shows a Drager colorimetric gas detection tube used to test the CO2 levels in air. In an indoor air test (in our laboratory) the detector found that the CO2 level was about 600ppm which is typical of indoor air and is an acceptable and safe level.

* At 1% concentration of carbon dioxide CO2 (10,000 parts per million or ppm) and under continuous exposure at that level, such as in an auditorium filled with occupants and poor fresh air ventilation, some occupants are likely to feel drowsy.
* The concentration of carbon dioxide must be over about 2% (20,000 ppm) before most people are aware of its presence unless the odor of an associated material (auto exhaust or fermenting yeast, for instance) is present at lower concentrations.
* Above 2%, carbon dioxide may cause a feeling of heaviness in the chest and/or more frequent and deeper respirations.
* If exposure continues at that level for several hours, minimal "acidosis" (an acid condition of the blood) may occur but more frequently is absent.
* Breathing rate doubles at 3% CO2 and is four times the normal rate at 5% CO2.
* Toxic levels of carbon dioxide: at levels above 5%, concentration CO2 is directly toxic. [At lower levels we may be seeing effects of a reduction in the relative amount of oxygen rather than direct toxicity of CO2.]

Symptoms of high or prolonged exposure to carbon dioxide include headache, increased heart rate, dizziness, fatigue, rapid breathing, visual and hearing dysfunctions. Exposure to higher levels may cause unconsciousness or death within minutes of exposure.
Distinguishing between high carbon dioxide levels CO2 and low oxygen levels O2 in air

What may be unclear in some cases is whether the sub-acute (sub-toxic) effects at modestly-elevated levels of CO2 in air stem from more from exposure to higher levels of carbon dioxide or whether they are due to reduced levels of oxygen. In an enclosed space such as a tight home or an enclosed basement or work space, increasing the level of CO2 is likely to simultaneously reduce the proportion of Oxygen (O2) in that same breathing air.

Some experts opine that a complaints that seem to be associated with high CO2 problem in many if not most circumstances are likely to be actually due to the corresponding reduction in available oxygen in air rather than high toxicity levels of CO2 in the air. As carbon dioxide levels climb above a few percent the relative proportions of gases making up that air change: the concentration of oxygen in the air inhaled is reduced as the amount of CO2 is increased.

More carbon dioxide may mean less oxygen: Let's say, sake of simplicity, that we're converting oxygen to carbon dioxide in an enclosed space. Then when the CO2 level has increased from its normal amount in air (about 0.03%) up to a higher concentration in air of 1.4% CO2 the concentration of oxygen in air will have decreased from 20.9 to 19.5%. Reducing the oxygen concentration from 20.9% down to 19.5% is equal to a 6.7% reduction in the oxygen level. -- Thanks to thanks to Dr. Roy Jensen for assistance with these details.

What are the effects on humans (and other animals) of reduction of the oxygen levels in air? At sea level, breathing air in which the O2 level has fallen to 16% percent is equivalent to being at the top of a 9,200-foot mountain - close to the level at which many people will experience shortness of breath while walking. 12% Oxygen in air at sea level corresponds to breathing normal air at an elevation of about 17,400 feet.



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CO2 HEALTH EFFECTS - Potential Health Hazards of Toxic Gas Exposure

Hazard evaluation consists of comparing measurements of exposure (or dose) with exposures (doses) known to be safe or known to be hazardous. For the most part, because of biological variation, "no effect" levels are much easier to estimate than are "first effect" or other levels indicative of injury.

Toxic levels of carbon dioxide: According to occupational exposure and controlled atmosphere research into CO2 toxicology, CO2 is hazardous via direct toxicity at levels above 5%, concentrations not encountered in nature [except perhaps at or near an active volcano or at water-logged soils]. At these high levels there is risk of death from carbon dioxide poisoning. At lower levels there may health effects and there certainly are complaints of exposure at lower levels.

In the preceding section of this article, at CO2 POISONING SYMPTOMS we discussed symptoms of carbon dioxide exposure. On specific individuals, the effects of exposure to elevated levels of carbon dioxide (CO2) vary by individual and with exposure level, and exposure duration, ranging from drowsiness (perhaps at levels over 1000 ppm continuous exposure) to the toxic effects listed just above.
How might CO2 accumulate at a dangerous level in a residential property?

Carbon dioxide, CO2, from a small leak is unlikely to be dangerous, as it can be expected to be diluted with fresh air mixing in a building. But there can be exceptions in which carbon dioxide may accumulate and reach higher, even dangerous concentrations indoors.

* Flue gas spillage: in an enclosed gas-fired boiler room with a deficient chimney draft can produce high levels of CO2. In a case in which there is sufficient combustion air, say from a direct air duct to the gas burner, the system may not be producing more dangerous carbon monoxide (CO), but the heating system may nonetheless spilling flue gases with a high level of CO2 into the room from a defective chimney. Since CO2 being more dense than air it may accumulate in an enclosed basement, crawl space, or boiler room. Alternatively, because the CO2 in this case is a heating system exhaust, it may be warmer than surrounding air and it may rise upwards in the building into the living space. For this reason when we measure for the presence of flue gases, even if the gas is one which is "supposed to be" heavier than air, we may measure both high and low in the test area.
* Soil sources of high carbon dioxide in buildings: NIOSH reports on an investigation of complaints by homeowners of blurred vision, breathlessness, and "episodic mild confusion" caused by exposure to from elevated carbon dioxide levels in a finished basement and an adjacent crawlspace. West Virginia Department of Environmental Protection detected carbon dioxide levels up to 9.5 percent in the basement and CO2levels up to 11 percent in the crawlspace grave, with 12 percent in the basement floor drain (suggesting a soil source of CO2 in a home in West Virginia home, according to a NIOSH report. CO2 levels in the soil surrounding the home were measured at levels up to 8 percent. The probable source of the high CO2 levels in the soils under and around this home were probably due to [coal] mining activities.

Are the effects of breathing CO2 permanent?

Any detrimental effects of low-level CO2 exposure are reversible, including the long-term metabolic compensation required by chronic exposure to 3% CO2. -- "A Review of Human Health and Ecological Risks due to CO2 Exposure," American Geophysical Union, Spring Meeting 2001, abstract #H31C-13, Hepple, R. P.; Benson, S. M., 05/2001.

More Reading:
"Gases: Toxic gases, indoor exposure levels, testing, identification" additional information on gas exposure detection, toxicity, and remedy for a wide range of toxic and other gases.

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CO2 EXPOSURE LIMITS - Carbon dioxide exposure limits PEL and TLV set by OSHA and NIOSH

Carbon dioxide is regulated for diverse purposes but not as a toxic substance.

* The U.S. EPA CO2 exposure limits: The U.S. EPA recommends a maximum concentration of Carbon dioxide CO2 of 1000 ppm (0.1%) for continuous exposure.
* ASHRAE standard 62-1989 recommends an indoor air ventilation standard of 20 cfm per person of outdoor air or a CO2 level which is below 1000ppm.
* NIOSH CO2 exposure limits: NIOSH recommends a maximum concentration of carbon dioxide of 10,000 ppm or 1% (for the workplace, for a 10-hr work shift with a ceiling of 3.0% or 30,000 ppm for any 10-minute period). These are the highest threshold limit value (TLV) and permissible exposure limit (PEL) assigned to any material.
* OSHA CO2 exposure limits: OSHA recommends a lowest oxygen concentration of 19.5% in the work place for a full work-shift exposure. As we calculated above, for the indoor workplace oxygen level to reach 19.5% (down from its normal 20.9% oxygen level in outdoor air) by displacement of oxygen by CO2, that is, to reduce the oxygen level by about 6%, the CO2 or carbon dioxide level would have to increase to about 1.4% 14,000 ppm.

In summary, OSHA, NIOSH, and ACGIH occupational exposure standards are 0.5% CO2 (5,000 ppm) averaged over a 40 hour week, 3% (3,000 ppm) average for a short-term (15 minute) exposure [we discuss and define "short term exposure limits" STEL below], and 4% (40,000 ppm) as the maximum instantaneous limit considered immediately dangerous to life and health. All three of these exposure limit conditions must be satisfied, always and together.
What laws regulate carbon dioxide exposure levels?

Of the several industrial hygiene standards-setting groups in this country, the most important and/or most quoted are the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA), and the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) but these are recommended standards, not laws.

Standards promulgated by OSHA (called Permissible Exposure Limits or PELs) have the force of law. The other standards are advisory. However OSHA claims the power to force compliance with NIOSH "Recommended Standards" if it chooses to do so. (The main advantage of ACGIH Threshold Limit Values (TLVs) is that they are reviewed and updated annually; neither NIOSH nor OSHA updates its standards with any regular frequency.)

NIOSH limits on Carbon Dioxide Exposure: NIOSH's recommended CO2 exposure limit for 15 minutes is 3 percent. A CO2 level of 4 percent is designated by NIOSH as immediately dangerous to life or health.

OSHA limits on Carbon Dioxide Exposure: The U.S. Department of Labor Occupational Safety & Health Administration, OSHA, has set Permissible Exposure Limits for Carbon Dioxide in workplace atmospheres at 10,000 ppm of CO2 measured as a Time Weighted Average (TWA) level of exposure and OSHA has set 30,000 ppm of CO2 as a Short-Term Exposure Limit (STEL). OSHA has also set a Transitional Limit of 5,000 ppm CO2 exposure TWA. [OSHA's former limit for carbon dioxide was 5000 ppm as an 8-hour TWA.]
Definitions of Short Term Exposure Limits or STEL

What is the definition of "short term exposure" or "Short-Term Exposure Limit (STEL)"? The ACGIH has defined STEL as the concentration (in this case of a gas in air) to which workers can be exposed continuously for a short period of time without suffering from irritation, chronic or irreversible tissue damage, or narcosis of sufficient degree to increase the likelihood of accidental injury, impair self-rescue or materially reduce work efficiency.

What is a "short period"? and what is "short term exposure"?: The definition of "short period" is provided indirectly by ACGIH:

1. If during an 8-hour work shift (and before it has ended) a worker is exposed to a substance in excess of the threshold limit value, time weighted average exposure permitted exposure level for the entire shift, then that exposure has exceeded the short term exposure limit or STEL.
2. If a worker is exposed to more than four STEL periods during the course of an 8-hour work shift, with less than 60 minutes between those exposure periods, then also that exposure has exceeded the STEL.


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Photograph of a Drager colorimetric gas detection tube used to measure carbon dioxide levels in the environment. TYPICAL CO2 LEVELS Indoors and Outside
How to use gas detection tubes for measuring the level of various gases

The colorimetric gas detection tubes, here showing a tube made by Drager, are a relatively inexpensive way to test for the level of specific gases. The tubes are quite accurate and can be selected and used down to very low concentrations of various gases, provided that a properly chosen and calibrated gas testing pump is used. In some cases for very precise measurements a correction factor needs to be applied for temperature at the time of measurement. We use Drager tubes as well as another system of tubes and pump made for and sold through GasTec for testing indoor levels of specific gases.
What are the component gases that make up normal air and in what proportions or percentages do they ocur?

At sea level on earth, what is the composition of the air we breathe? That is, what gases make up normal outdoor air? How much CO2 is in air? How much oxygen is in air? and how much nitrogen is in the earth's atmosphere? Here is the mix of gases in normal outdoor air. The earth's atmosphere (measured close to ground level) is made up of 78.1% nitrogen, 20.9% oxygen, 0.9% argon, 0.03% carbon dioxide, and 0.04% other gases. Let's look at some typical CO2 levels in both percentage and expressed in parts per million, which is how most instruments measure gas concentrations. [The mix of gases in air near some manufacturing facilities or in some cities may be a bit different.]
What are typical Carbon Dioxide levels in air?

* Carbon dioxide CO2 levels outdoors near ground level are typically 300 ppm to 350 ppm or 0.03% to 0.035% in concentration.
* Carbon dioxide CO2 levels indoors in occupied buildings are typically around 600 ppm to 800 ppm or 0.06% to 0.08% in concentration. You'll find this data in many indoor air quality articles and books and it's consistent with what we find typically in our own field measurements.
* Carbon dioxide CO2 levels indoors in an inadequately vented space with heavy occupation is often measured around 1000 ppm or 0.10% in concentration. I have measured levels around 1200 ppm in occupied basement offices in a hospital where the staff worked in an area which had no decent fresh air intake into their ventilation system. In 1989 I also measured 1200 ppm at chest height in the center of the sanctuary in a Jewish synagogue during the high holy days in a small New York city. I also observed people nodding off. We were never sure if it was a droning sermon, exhausted worshipers at the end of a long week, or the CO2 level. But there was no doubt that we were not meeting recommended ventilation standards for that space.
* Carbon dioxide levels above 1500 to 2000 ppm are likely to be reached only in unusual circumstances (being enclosed in an airtight closet for a long time) or in industrial workplace settings such as we cited above.


Oxygen gas level measurements & poisoning symptoms: If you reached this paragraph by scrolling down, read about

Carbon Monoxide Gas Level Measurements & Poisoning Symptoms: If you reached this paragraph by scrolling down, read about CARBON MONOXIDE - CO hazards, detection, exposure limits, and health effects by using the links at the left on these pages.
Technical Reviewers

Particular thanks are due to experts and also consumers who read these articles and suggest corrections, changes, and additions to the material. Content suggestions, technical corrections and content critique are invited for any of the content at our website.

* Daniel Friedman - principal author
* Dr. Roy Jensen, Department of Chemistry, Grant MacEwan College, Edmonton, AB for technical review and critique 8/23/07. Dr. Jensen notes that if we increase the CO2 level in air in an enclosed space from its normal level of about 0.03% (we counted it as starting at 0) to a level of 1.4%, we obtain a corresponding decrease in the oxygen level from its normal level (at sea level) of about 20.9% down to 19.5%, for a 6.7% reduction in the amount of oxygen available. The amount of oxygen lost is 6.7 % (1.4/20.9 * 100 %). Our earlier version of this document was incorrect in this calculation.
* Technical reviewers are invited to comment or ask questions - contact us
 
I have never heard of changes to regulations being made retrospective and affecting old installations. Double glazing, for example, now specifies K type glass but no one is being made to change their double glazing just because the regs have changed.

On the matter of ventilation, I did a bit of googling and found this:

The fact is that there is no "new regulation" or "new safety standard" regarding this issue and ventilation requirements have not changed. If a boiler was installed from new, according to the maker's instructions, there is no reason why it should suddenly have become unsafe. The only reason British Gas, or any other CORGI-registered engineer, could have for advising more ventilation would be that the boiler was wrongly installed originally; or if the ventilation had since been reduced, such as by airbricks or ventilation grilles being blocked up; or if a free-standing boiler had since been "compart-mentalised" or enclosed in a cupboard.

The current confusion stems from the publication in August 2005 of the fourth edition of the Gas Industry Unsafe Situations Procedure, which specifies the steps to be taken in the event of a gas appliance being genuinely poorly ventilated. This states that an appliance with 39 per cent or less of the manufacturer's ventilation requirement should be classified as "at risk" with immediate effect and turned off (or less than 90 per cent of the required ventilation for a compartmentalised appliance); if the ventilation is between 40 per cent and 89 per cent of the requirement, then the user must be informed that they have until 1 June 2008 to rectify the situation, and that if they don't, it will be deemed to be "at risk" from that date.


It would appear from this that, if the ventilation met mfr's requirements at installation, there is absolutely no reason to change it; but, if below spec the boiler may be turned off or left running and the owner told to get it fixed by 1 June, depending on how below spec the ventilation is.
 
Almost any substance which is normally harmless will have detrimental effects when intake is increased enough.
Most doctors will tell you that drinking 2 litres of clean water a day is very healthy. Increase that with the same factor as in your research, and you will perish as well.
1 glass of wine vs 50?
Eat 100 apples in one day and you get very ill.
200 cuppas?
How about having sex 500 times a week?
10 times a normal dose of ibuprofen is likely to kill you, let alone 50.
Running 100 miles in one go in stead of twice around the park?

“scientific research” can prove or disprove anything; we are all witnessing how most governments have jumped on the “carbon-footprint” bandwagon in order to justify billions in extra tax levies. When the government will show its commitment to “carbon-reduction” by matching the extra revenue pound for pound to fund research into cars that can run at a quarter of the cost of today, I will reconsider my opinion.
 

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