If there were no openable windows, the Building Regs might not really give you any choice.
Kind Regards, John
Airflow icon 15L Timer
- Thread starter aubrey4444
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Kind Regards, John
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The Building Regulations do not mandate that a fan come on whenever anybody goes into the room.
They don't - but IIRC, when they mandate the presence of a fan, they also mandate that it should have an over-run - even if one contrives one's usage/behaviour so that the fan never actually comes on! Is that not correct?
Kind Regards, John
Don't think so. I think they only require "effective ventilation", or something like that.
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I'm not sure that one could normally achieve the required degree of "effective ventilation" in a room without an openable window by any means other than an extractor fan (or equivalent), could one? There is no doubt is that if the required ventilation in a room without an openable window is achieved by an intermittent fan, Part F requires that fan to have a 15 minute over-run ("Table" 5.2a of App Doc F).
Kind Regards, John
Well, it's another of these cases in which the legislation itself is extremely vague but, in this case, there is far more detail in the associated 'Approved Document'. You may, of course, feel that you have sufficient expert knowledge that would enable you to be able to prove that you were providing an "adequate means of ventilation" (as required by Part F) even though not complying with the 'guidelines' (or whatever you want to call them) in the AD, but I certainly would not put any money on your chances of success.
Kind Regards, John
If you had an opening window, would you be forced by law to have a mechanism which prevented it from being closed for X minutes after opening?
If you had an opening window, would you be forced by law to have a mechanism which automatically opened it whenever the light was turned on?
Unless you can answer "yes" to both of those (and, BTW, be able to reference an authoritative source confirming that "yes" is the correct answer) then please provide an explanation of why someone who has an opening window is trusted to open and close it manually as they see fit, but someone who has an electric fan is not trusted to turn it on and off as they see fit.
If you had an opening window, would you be forced by law to have a mechanism which automatically opened it whenever the light was turned on?
Unless you can answer "yes" to both of those (and, BTW, be able to reference an authoritative source confirming that "yes" is the correct answer) then please provide an explanation of why someone who has an opening window is trusted to open and close it manually as they see fit, but someone who has an electric fan is not trusted to turn it on and off as they see fit.
For as long as I can remember, it has been 'recognised' that the Building Regs are daft in that respect, since the very widely-accepted belief about what is necessary to satisfy them (as indicated, for example, in current AD) has only ever depended upon whether or not an 'openable window' is present, without there ever having been any suggestion of any compulsion on anyone ever to open it. A rational 'explanation' is therefore not possible.
You are just trying to be 'clever', in a manner very likely to confuse DIYers reading this. If you're convinced that your 'letter of the law' approach would work, try creating (or merely just 'proposing') a new loo (requiring BC approval) without an 'openable window' in your house and (ignoring AD F) EITHER install no fan (but have some argument up your sleeve as to why there is "an adequate means of ventilation" without one) OR install an extractor fan without an over-run - and see if your BCO will approve it.
Kind Regards, John
Well, there are, of course, two alternatives for someone like Iggifer
1) Install and then subsequently remove an overrun fan.
2) Go over the argument about openable windows and ask the BCO how confident he is that his legal department would consider it worth going to appeal over.
1) Install and then subsequently remove an overrun fan.
2) Go over the argument about openable windows and ask the BCO how confident he is that his legal department would consider it worth going to appeal over.
Does that actually 'work'? By analogy, if, as a means of demonstrating compliance with Part P (the law) one complied with BS7671 in protecting a new buried cable with an RCD, would one not be on the wrong side of Part P (the law) if one subsequently removed the RCD protection?
Kind Regards, John
No, not legally, because there's the overarching prohibition on making things worse. But it is one of the two alternative courses available to someone who doesn't want an fan with a timer - I can't think of anything other than removing it or refusing to install one in the first place.
The RCD analogy is a bit flawed. Firstly it's a lot less reasonable to object to having an RCD than it is to object to having a fan running for 20-30 minutes in the middle of the night when you've not been eating asparagus. Secondly whilst one could argue that a fan with manual controls in the same vein as manual windows qualifies as providing adequate ventilation it's harder to say that a concealed cable without RCD protection qualifies as reasonable provision for safety etc.
The RCD analogy is a bit flawed. Firstly it's a lot less reasonable to object to having an RCD than it is to object to having a fan running for 20-30 minutes in the middle of the night when you've not been eating asparagus. Secondly whilst one could argue that a fan with manual controls in the same vein as manual windows qualifies as providing adequate ventilation it's harder to say that a concealed cable without RCD protection qualifies as reasonable provision for safety etc.
All true, but I was talking specifically about your option (1) (remove the fan subsequent to it being installed and 'approved'), without any involvement of your option (2) (arguments about "adequate ventilation". My point was that if one installs something (be it a fan or an RCD) which is required (or is regarded by BC as being required) by law, then to subsequently remove it (without providing an acceptable replacement/alternative) is probably unlawful.
Kind Regards, John
I never imagined it would be otherwise.
Fan has stopped working is there away to bypass the timer module to see if the fan is still working or it's a timer module that is needed
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