Alarms ? wired or wireless

[Paul_C]

your not trade so its difficult to explain the whole "need to comply with British Standards" to ensure you stay within the law so you may want to start by getting a copy of the building regs which is a bit like saying " the highway code isnt actually a law" either

I'm having trouble keeping up with your arguments now. You seem to have dropped the trading standards angle and are now arguing that it's covered by building regulations?

Can you cite a specific piece of legislation which says that alarms installed for remuneration must comply with a particular British or European standard?

Even if that is so, the document linked to above refers to European standard PD6662, which appears to be where a grade 1 system is defined. So surely a system which meets the requirements of grade 1 also meets the requirements of that PD6662 standard anyway, albeit to the lowest acceptable level?

but trading without PL is illegal and thats a real issue.

Again, can you cite the legislation which says so?

 

[JohnD]

lots of flannelling going on

no evidence that it is illegal

 

[denso13]

but trading without PL is illegal and thats a real issue.

Again, can you cite the legislation which says so?

Trading without PL is not illegal.

 

[bernardgreen]

Public Liability

Assembling flat pack furniture for remuneration would appear to be an occupation / source of income where public liability insurance would be a good idea.

An insurance company has paid out for items lost and is paying for repair of items damaged when flat pack furniture collapsed. When they were told the furniture had been assembled by a third party in return for payment they set about to recover their loss from the third party. The third party it seems is faced with two options.

[1] pay the insurance company's claim against him

[2] incur legal fees to try and prove he is not to blame for apparently defective assembly and risk a much larger final pay out if he losses.

As he apparently does not have insurance for the work he carries out it transpires his financial future looks very in-secure.

 

[JohnD]

[3] take care not to have much money so it is not worth anyone's while going to the pointless expense of taking him to court

So... NOT ILLEGAL THEN.

 

[piffle]

simple trading standard legislation more than covers it but you could look at PL insurance requirments too.

If the customer orders and pays for a grade 1 system and you install a system to grade 1, then the customer has gotten exactly what he asked for. How does that make it a trading standards issue?

What is your understanding of the grading system?

The question of 'fit for purpose' would seem relevant if someone is charging for supply and install of Grade 1 kit.

 

[JohnD]

If I choose to buy a cheap product, why you you imagine that it is ILLEGAL for someone to charge me to fit it?

Is there something about being in the Alarms trade that makes people prone to making wild and unfounded allegations?

 

[Paul_C]

Trading without PL is not illegal.

Just the point I was making, albeit somewhat obtusely. Nobody will be able to cite legislation which makes it illegal, because there isn't any.

What is your understanding of the grading system?

The question of 'fit for purpose' would seem relevant if someone is charging for supply and install of Grade 1 kit.

I haven't read the full standard, so perhaps someone who has could elucidate on the necessary requirements to meet grade 1.

However, whatever those requirements for grade 1 may be, if the equipment meets those requirements then surely it's fit for the purpose of providing protection to grade 1?

If I choose to buy a cheap product, why you you imagine that it is ILLEGAL for someone to charge me to fit it?

Precisely. If I buy a Mini, can I complain that it's not "fit for purpose" because it doesn't give me the build or ride quality of a Rolls-Royce?

 

[piffle]

What is your understanding of the grading system?

The question of 'fit for purpose' would seem relevant if someone is charging for supply and install of Grade 1 kit.

I haven't read the full standard, so perhaps someone who has could elucidate on the necessary requirements to meet grade 1.

However, whatever those requirements for grade 1 may be, if the equipment meets those requirements then surely it's fit for the purpose of providing protection to grade 1?

The answer was in the document you linked to earlier.

But in essence, minimal covers it.
A sign on the door saying 'burglars go away' would be Grade 1.

 

[JohnD]

You agree it's not illegal then?

 

[piffle]

You agree it's not illegal then?

I referred to the grading.

Is misleading customers legal?

 

[JohnD]

more flannel

Can you actually say what you think is illegal, and produce evidence to support your allegation?

If I choose to buy a cheap product, do you imagine that it is ILLEGAL for someone to charge me to fit it?

 

[Paul_C]

The answer was in the document you linked to earlier.

You mean this?

Grade 1 is for a property unlikely to attract an intruder and that any attempted intrusion is likely to be a spur-of-the-moment occurrance with no prior planning.

Properties falling into this Grade would be low grade domestic properties without an insurance requirement.

That's not the whole definition in the PD6662 standard, surely?

 

[piffle]

Grade 1 is really anything that is of little to no deterrent and with little to no effect.
IE. The manufacturers Grade their product (in accordance with the requirements of the relevant regs).
The regs set certain requirements, Grade 1 is effectively anything that doesn't meet the minimum requirements, hence the reason why no sensible installer will use Grade 1 product.

To suggest a Grade 1 product/system will provide the same level of performance as a Grade 3 is incorrect.

Compare it to say a mechanical lock.
Does a cheap nasty Yale lock or Euro cylinder provide the same level of security has a good, 5 lever mortice?

 

[JohnD]

are you saying a cheap product is not as good as an expensive one now?

or are you claiming it is illegal to fit one for pay?

Do you know anyone who "suggest a Grade 1 product/system will provide the same level of performance as a Grade 3."