All Electric Cars

[Hysteresis]

Sounds Like A Good Idea, but they are not pollution free. The electricity has to be generated somehow and 50% of it is dirty coal.
But more to the point of my posting :-
How do electric cars provide Cabin Heating during the Winter when it a definite must.
Presumably they don't and the poor driver freezes ? Either that or the driver uses electric heating and a driving distance of about two miles!!!!!
Or have I missed something here.

 

[Burnerman]

Fair comment, and at this time of the year I reckon the UK's generating capacity is just about at maximum as it is.
You can just picture the scene after purchasing a new Nissan Leaf or similar for around £20000 or so after a government grant. You can manage with 80 miles or so, then you hit a diversion, it gets dark so the lights are needed - and you come to a nice smooth halt.
Like wind power generation - good in principle but we can't rely on it.
Like you, I've no idea how they are heated.
John

 

[gblades]

The only source of power is the battery so if you want heating thats where it needs to come from.
A typical electric car battery is around 15kwh so if you have a 1kw heater in the car (about the same as an electric fan heater on low) then it will last about 15 hours.
If you compare that to the range of the car lets say for argument is 200 miles at 50mph then the engine will drain the battery in 4 hours so having the heating on all the time will increase power consumption by about 25%.
In reality a 1KW heater in the car would certainly not be on all the time and they would concentrate on insulation a bit more since heating is no longer free so its not going to make that much of a difference.

 

[Hysteresis]

Hi gblades
I would suggest that on a mild winters morning, 1KW would not be sufficient to get the car and it's fabric warm enough. Not to mention a frosty morning. These vehicles are of no use for anything other than a summers day in the UK, and then only for shopping or very short commutes. Another problem is how long does it take to charge the damn thing up. Substantially more than a petrol fill up. And aall of these disadvantages for £20,000 subsidised.
It all suggests Nissan have made one hell of a mistake as the car appears tp be a non starter in by book

 

[gblades]

1KW was just an example. It could certenly power a 2KW heater for a few minutes which will get the car warmed up much quicker than regular cars without too much battery drain.

I agree with you though that they are not practical for most people. They are ok for a town runaround but you would still need a regular car in the household for longer journeys. I think a full charge of a large battery is in the region of 20 hours so not even an overnight charge will top it up fully. To get a reasonable charge rate and cost you will need to have a 3 phase supply run to the house on an overnight energy tariff which is not really practical. You would of course need your own garage because you cant run a mains lead over a public footpath for example.

 

[Peter.N.]

I don't think even 2kw would warm the car very quickly, certainly not quick enough for me, a normal car heater has an output in excess of 5kw so impractical for an electric vehicle. A better idea would be an auxilliary diesel powered heater as in my 406, brilliant - or heated seats, that would use a lot less.

I think electric cars are an ideal second car for shopping and the school run but they would not need the range that some are capable of now. The 'wifes' car probably doesn't do more than 10 miles a day or exceed 30 mph, so why not make one with a smaller battery pack which equals less money and less weight which equals greater efficiency and a less than proportional loss of range. Look at the thousands of electric milk floats that used to be around.

When I worked in London in the '50s, Harrods had quite large electric delivery vans, our bread was also delivered in an electric van, they needed very little maintenance the only major cost was battery replacement, they must have been cheaper to run and more reliable than ICE vehicles or they wouldn't have run them back in those days of austerity.

Peter

 

[1john]

I think 1kW would be adequate in a little car, during the snow a 3kW heater was defrosting the inside and outside of my van windows in under 10 mins, its a fiat Ducato, kind of transit sized, it is not well sealed either.

 

[big-all]

another thought
there will be transmission losses in the form off heat from the battery' motor' electronics this could be vented to atmosphere or the car??
i assume they have regenerative breaking if not this could warm the car

backed up by a heater when to cold or before starting
i assume it will have a preheat setting to warm the car whilst still connected to a shore supply thus saving the batteries

 

[Peter.N.]

How about a nice big night storage heater

 

[Mursal]

Toyota Prius use an electric heater in the coolant circuit to heat the system when the car is on the electric motor.

I cant remember the size of the heating element.

 

[timtheenchanter]

England is not mainly coal based power production anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_England

also, having looked into this recently, an electric car is not more efficient in any way than a petorl or deisel car.

from various sources, I found:
a petrol engine is around 18% to 20% efficient round town and in general, rising to up to 75% on a cruise.

Deisel is slightly better, with HDI and similar direct injections around 40%, rising to 80% on cruise, but lowers above 1800RPM due to the increase of work done by turbos to get enough air flow into the engine.

Electric cars are regarded as being around 80-85% effecient themselves (losses for charging and within car circuitry)

A power station of coal/oil is only around 33% efficient, and gas turbine maxes out at 60%, and needs to be run at full power, or not at all to maximise efficiency, gas turbines become very innefficient if run at slower speeds. nuclear seems to be around 35% after taking into account disposal inneficiencies, none of the above includes transport of raw materials, or losses in the distribution network.

 

[ladylola]

I can't comment on the heating in an electric car, although I've had experience of a few petrol cars whose heaters struggle to live up to their name.
It has been mentioned here about the range and town use of electric cars. I can't help but think that there is a huge flaw to this concept. In towns and on local runs the best way to go for efficiency is public transport, ban cars from city centers and install tram ways or even one diesel powered bus is more efficient than a traffic jam of electric cars.

 

[Mursal]

I can't comment on the heating in an electric car, although I've had experience of a few petrol cars whose heaters struggle to live up to their name.
It has been mentioned here about the range and town use of electric cars. I can't help but think that there is a huge flaw to this concept. In towns and on local runs the best way to go for efficiency is public transport, ban cars from city centers and install tram ways or even one diesel powered bus is more efficient than a traffic jam of electric cars.

Working in the Motor Industry we don't take kindly to people using bad language like pub*ic tran**ort, see I cant even say it!

 

[ladylola]

..... public transport.......,

Working in the Motor Industry we don't take kindly to people using bad language like pub*ic tran**ort, see I cant even say it!

The Irish m***r ind**try? What , oh even I can't say that!

 

[Burnerman]

I think some cars heaters struggle too, but there again, 'er indoors Nissan Note diesel gives 65 MPG which surely means that as its not using much juice, there can't be much energy left for heating......
Logic - of sorts?
John