Am I being given the right advice on renewing flat roof?

[Xenon]

You will only use 3 layers when insulating, 1st layer will be vapour barrier, then insulation then 2 layers on top of insulation. If no insuation involved 2 layers is sufficient. Old rag based felts no longer exist. Bitumen used on new ht felts is sbs modified, they no longer split, they can expand and contract with the thermal movement.

Bitumen is on the roll, hence 100% bond to substrate. EPDM is only fitted by chancers in the main. Proper roofers won't touch it. Its the P1KEY of the roofing world, along with GRP.

 

[Zeberdee]

EPDM is a better product IMO.

Fit as many layers of felt as you want, But over time it will fail and leak because of the joins and over time the expansion and contraction will eventually see them joins fail.

EPDM however wont fail IMO, As there is no joins on most flat roofs, It expands, and contracts without splitting.

No brainer really.

And there are the words of a man that know absolutely nothing about felt.

As previously, what cast iron insurance backed single point guarantees do you get with EPDM? How many times is it inspected by manufacturers tech dept during installation? What license do you need from the manufacturer to install it?

Its a single answer....None. Its loved by those looking for cheap installation giving maximum profit, and anyone can install it with minimal plant.

So your honestly saying felt will outlast EPDM??

How long does a felt roof last?? Does it split/crack after so many years? Does rubber??

 

[tim00]

There's been a recent, sudden rush of glowing information about EPDM on this forum. It might all be quite innocent, but it does make me wonder.

The material seems to do the trick on small/residential flats. However, it's early days and many "new" roofing products have not lasted the course.
Zenon, i'd like to hear more about the "failings" that you mention.

Guarantee's in life or the building trade, typically, are not worth the paper etc. They mostly contain weasel get-out clauses and in-built delaying tactics to wear down anyone complaining. The Associations themselves are not there for the public good, or even their members. They are there for themselves outfits to gouge money for nothing from whoever they can take it from.

 

[dilly]

Hi
This roofing forum seems to becoming a sales pitch for epdm.Its really quiet simple it does not matter how good the system is if installed badly it will fail thus giving Felt,grp epdm a bad name.The best way is to go with a contractor who who offers a guarantee for both materials and installtion which come with a independent insurance backed guarantee.This will tell you that the installer has been fully trained and has his work checked for quality as no manufacture wants a rouge roofer installing there system.This will eliminate all the rouge roofers and give you some assurance of quality.But all this comes at a price hence people looking for a cheaper price and then having failing roofs.
i am suprised at the epdm supplier coming on a site and telling people what his installers should charge.

 

[Xenon]

EPDM is a better product IMO.

Fit as many layers of felt as you want, But over time it will fail and leak because of the joins and over time the expansion and contraction will eventually see them joins fail.

EPDM however wont fail IMO, As there is no joins on most flat roofs, It expands, and contracts without splitting.

No brainer really.

And there are the words of a man that know absolutely nothing about felt.

As previously, what cast iron insurance backed single point guarantees do you get with EPDM? How many times is it inspected by manufacturers tech dept during installation? What license do you need from the manufacturer to install it?

Its a single answer....None. Its loved by those looking for cheap installation giving maximum profit, and anyone can install it with minimal plant.

So your honestly saying felt will outlast EPDM??

How long does a felt roof last?? Does it split/crack after so many years? Does rubber??

HT felts don't split/crack. Do you know anything about elastomeric membranes? Have a google.

EPDM is only as good as its bonding agent. It will last as long as it lasts, but the bond will not. Constant expansion and contraction see the membrane ripple, which begins the de bonding process. Then the laps will fail and combined with wind it will let go.

We ripped 16000m2 of it off Brent Cross. We've ripped 1000's of M2 off various other roofs, especially schools in Surrey/Kent. As a single sheet with no joins on someones back addition, it will be fine, except every tom dick or harry is slinging it down, without the faintest idea what they're doing.

We get roughly 100 tenders a month come in, and do you know how many of them have been EPDM specs over the last 20 odd years? None, because people who know what they're doing in the professional world of roofing know its limitations.

We do £3 million a year in single ply, but its in proper stuff, Sana/Trocal etc tc with manufacturer support and genuine warranty.

We could probably buy EPDM in at £5-£6 a M2 if we wanted, that gives you an idea of its value.

You don't spend a day on a training course to lay felt, you spend 4 years as an improver, then work your way up to to the premium systems. Asphalt installers used to have to go to college and be certified too. But since the demise of Asphalt due to cost and availability, good ones are hard to find. As the comments above, EPDM is getting banged on about quite a bit here, but not by Proper Roofers, because they know its ****.

And finally, we do a lot of green roofing, this involves felting the roof then putting tons of growing medium on top , you wouldn't do that with EPDM.

 

[Zeberdee]

EPDM is a better product IMO.

Fit as many layers of felt as you want, But over time it will fail and leak because of the joins and over time the expansion and contraction will eventually see them joins fail.

EPDM however wont fail IMO, As there is no joins on most flat roofs, It expands, and contracts without splitting.

No brainer really.

And there are the words of a man that know absolutely nothing about felt.

As previously, what cast iron insurance backed single point guarantees do you get with EPDM? How many times is it inspected by manufacturers tech dept during installation? What license do you need from the manufacturer to install it?

Its a single answer....None. Its loved by those looking for cheap installation giving maximum profit, and anyone can install it with minimal plant.

So your honestly saying felt will outlast EPDM??

How long does a felt roof last?? Does it split/crack after so many years? Does rubber??

HT felts don't split/crack. Do you know anything about elastomeric membranes? Have a google.

EPDM is only as good as its bonding agent. It will last as long as it lasts, but the bond will not. Constant expansion and contraction see the membrane ripple, which begins the de bonding process. Then the laps will fail and combined with wind it will let go.

We ripped 16000m2 of it off Brent Cross. We've ripped 1000's of M2 off various other roofs, especially schools in Surrey/Kent. As a single sheet with no joins on someones back addition, it will be fine, except every tom dick or harry is slinging it down, without the faintest idea what they're doing.

We get roughly 100 tenders a month come in, and do you know how many of them have been EPDM specs over the last 20 odd years? None, because people who know what they're doing in the professional world of roofing know its limitations.

We do £3 million a year in single ply, but its in proper stuff, Sana/Trocal etc tc with manufacturer support and genuine warranty.

We could probably buy EPDM in at £5-£6 a M2 if we wanted, that gives you an idea of its value.

You don't spend a day on a training course to lay felt, you spend 4 years as an improver, then work your way up to to the premium systems. Asphalt installers used to have to go to college and be certified too. But since the demise of Asphalt due to cost and availability, good ones are hard to find. As the comments above, EPDM is getting banged on about quite a bit here, but not by Proper Roofers, because they know its s**t.

And finally, we do a lot of green roofing, this involves felting the roof then putting tons of growing medium on top , you wouldn't do that with EPDM.

Xenon, That is a great response.

Regarding the mtr sq you've stripped, All I can say is fair play, That proves your point that the EPDM single ply system can be fitted by cowboys, un-qualified, monkeys.

If any flat roof system is fitted incorectly, It WILL fail.
With EPDM, If its a large area it needs to be fitted correctly.

Fitting standards for the EPDM (imo) has improved alot due to the "roofers" thinking they can fit it. When in reality....They cant! Mainly because flat roofing products are moving on with the times.


I'm not saying your not a roofer who cant move with the times because I do respect your posts on the forum, As they are very helpful and professional. And you have many years experience on me.
I'm just an up and coming roofer.

What are your thoughts/opinions on the FIRESTONE RUBBERCOVER?

zeb

 

[Xenon]

Firestone rubbercover i can't give a genuine opinion on, because i've not seen it.

We/I will only fit products that we're happy to put our name to. One bad roof negates 1000's of good roofs overnight in our sector. So every one has to be perfect.

All the single plys we fit are hot air welded and mechanically fixed.There are some bonded systems but the adhesives are not standing up well, especially now they're all going water based/solvent free.

If you're building a business fitting rubber, good luck, do it well and it will grow, but as previously, everyone is fitting it, cutting each others throats on price, and that will kill it. It probably the cheapest material to buy, hence the big uptake. But no uptake in commercial markets.

I think there is one with BBA certification, not sure which though, but it'll be the most expensive now.

 

[surveylee]

Defo EPDM....ive used felt for years now, technology moves on and so do building materials.....ive now been fitting epdm for 4 years and would never go back to laying felt.
Hope my tuppence worth helps make up your mind.

 

[hardmetalking]

I still haven't heard of any company offering a decent guarantee with any flat roof material.
Xenon - what kind of guarantee do you offer?

I'm not sure you can class zinc, copper or stainless steel as a flat roof material as we can only go down to 3 degrees but I'd be happy to offer a lifetime guarantee because I believe in the products we use.

Sometimes it's difficult when an architect who doesn't know it's limitations makes design decisions which you know will fail over time. But we all know how stubborn architects can be.........
As long as the design is taken into consideration and the product fitted correctly there's no reason why a hard metal roof should last over 100 years.

 

[DaMekon]

Dont forget you will need to pay £200 - £300 to the council to inspect the installation is compliant with building regs!!

Apparently, although none of the 4 builders Ive had round to quote mentioned that if you are carrying out work to a roof, pitched or flat, you must submit building notice, then pay the council to come round an ensure it complies with Part L1B building reg.

Im not happy just finding this out.. Im not a builder, I dont know the regs, but would expect someone doing the work to know about them, and do the work in accordance.

 

[tertheroof]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

I am hearing lots of good things about EPDM, but really, I just want a reasonably priced solution to my small, leaking roof.

Are 3 layers better than 2?

I feel more confident about the roofer who is quoting for 2 layers, probably because I found his details on the NFRC website. He said that 3 layers are a bit 'old school' and that with the modern thicker mineral felts, 2 layers were more than enough.

Having absolutely no experience in this field, I am completely in the hands of the professionals, hence my post here, hoping for some impartial advice.

Thank you.

Such a pity I read this late but for future edification the guy that said three layers........ was correct, the first is a thermal movement layer this prevents the felt from being fully bonded to the decking and allows movement , I would advise you to check with the NFRC, Then look at the guarantee specifications for Andersons , RoofShop, Icopal etc etc Flat roofing has got a bad name which is a shame , the product is fine if laid correctly

 

[tertheroof]

You will only use 3 layers when insulating, 1st layer will be vapour barrier, then insulation then 2 layers on top of insulation. If no insuation involved 2 layers is sufficient. Old rag based felts no longer exist. Bitumen used on new ht felts is sbs modified, they no longer split, they can expand and contract with the thermal movement.

Bitumen is on the roll, hence 100% bond to substrate. EPDM is only fitted by chancers in the main. Proper roofers won't touch it. Its the P1KEY of the roofing world, along with GRP.

Got to agree with you on EPDM , and GRP got to disagree on not using thermal movement layer check Andersons Icopal specification (to name but a few) both have SBS felts both specify thermal movement layer

 

[Buddinator]

I was just googling EPDM roof stuff because I was bored, and came across this thread. I'm not sure where you guys are but I assume when you say "felt roof" you are referring to what we here in Canada call a 3 ply or 4 ply tar and gravel system. My company does not install those but I know that they are a fine roof that lasts for several decades.

What caught my attention is the references to the EPDM roofs, which is what my company does install. Like I said, I cannot knock the tar and gravel system because it's a time proven, reliable roof. But for anyone to say that EPDM roofs are no good is simply ridiculous. EPDM is the greatest thing since sliced bread. It's WAY easier to install obviously, way cheaper to buy, and lasts just as long as any felt/tar and gravel roof. Yes its weak points are its seams, but with the seam tape those seams are bullet proof. The old EPDM roofs that were installed 30 and 40 years ago are still in nearly perfect condition and they didn't even use seam tape back then. Any seam failures are a direct result of a bad installation.

We have inspected old EPDM roofs here that have been in service for decades and are still like new. They're easy to repair and it's super easy to flash in new curbs and things on an old roof.

And to make it all even better, because it's so light, we can often lay a new EPDM roof right over an existing tar and gravel roof and charge the customer only half of what it would have cost them to install a new tar and gravel roof. Even if we strip the old roof off, we can still only charge them about 70% of the price of a new tar and gravel, and they get a roof that's just as good and lasts just as long. Now THAT is a no brainer.

Someone said that good roofers stay away from EPDM because it's sh**. Well you are badly mistaken and probably a little crazy. The good roofers are smart enough to know that EPDM is the way to go now. Sure there are still tar and gravel roofs going on, but more and more people (architects, building owners, roofing companies) are learning about the obvious benefits of EPDM and are using it instead of the antiquated tar and gravel roofs.

Nothing wrong with tar and gravel roofs. But EPDM is better in so many ways. Another good roof is the PVC roofs. I wonder if it's even better than EPDM because the seams are heat welded. We are thinking of getting into PVC. But we will always do EPDM.

 

[noseall]

.Fit as many layers of felt as you want, But over time it will fail and leak because of the joins and over time the expansion and contraction will eventually see them joins fail.

No it won't.