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Another Hive Wiring Issue...Gravity Fed Dandoss 103 to Dual channel Hive

Discussion in 'Plumbing and Central Heating' started by mattyv33, 9 Jun 2019.

  1. mattyv33

    mattyv33

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    Hi all,

    I have referred to many threads on here regarding installation of a dual channel Hive.

    I bought the necessary Hive and know it needs to be set to gravity fed.

    I took the front of the Danfoss 103 to reveal this :

    20190609_164705.jpg
    20190609_164702.jpg
    Screenshot_20190609-170847_Gallery.jpg
    1BCF6CA6-1FDF-4206-AD5C-C130488143CE.jpeg

    This is what is behind the Danfoss 103 panel :

    20190609_162422.jpg
    20190609_162409.jpg

    The Danfoss 103 is connected to this thermostat in the hall :

    20190609_164809.jpg
    This is the Hive, I need to connect the wires from the Danfoss 103 to this :

    Hive.JPG

    I have read that the thermostat either needs to be removed completely or can be left connected with the thermostat on full.

    I would like to remove the thermostat in the hall completely so I can put my Hive controller there.

    I would appreciate any help given. I am aware the earth goes to earth tether and N and L goes to Hive N and L but there are multiple wires in 5 and 6 and I'm not sure which is which.

    Cheers!
     

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  2. stem

    stem

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    It's not quite as simple as you think unfortunately.

    The Danfoss 103 is a single channel timeswitch, meaning it only provides a single on/off which is being used to control both the heating and the hot water. The Hive is dual channel and has one on/off channel for the heating, and a separate on/off channel for the hot water.

    This means that to use Hive, your system will need rewiring so that the heating and hot water control are separated. The Hive 'hot water on' terminal 3 is wired to control the boiler and the Hive 'heating on' terminal 4 is wired to control the pump. No connection will be made to the existing room thermostat.

    Even after rewiring, if you don't have motorised valve(s) to provide separate control of the heating and the hot water, the operation of the Hive will be restricted by the limits of the gravity system, so this would be a good opportunity to upgrade it to a fully pumped system and make the best use of the Hive.
     
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  3. mattyv33

    mattyv33

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    Thanks for your reply, I have read a few of your answers to queries.

    I am aware there will be limitations - I just want it working so I can have the hot water on independently. I know the hot water will come on with the central heating. I want to be able to heat the hot water up without the heating coming on.

    Are you able to provide help with this or should I consult an electrician?

    Thanks again.
     
  4. ianmcd

    ianmcd

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    Ha Ha you havent read all the posts then as @stem is an electrician, yes you can do what you describe, HW on from Hive to boiler on, and CH on to pump live and set the hive to gravity, you will have HW on its own or HW and CH both on, you will not get CH without HW
     
  5. mattyv33

    mattyv33

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    Sorry I wasn't saying he wasn't, I meant shall I call a local electrician.

    I understand what you mean regarding your reply however which is HW on and which is CH live out of the wires coming out of the Danfoss?

    Also how will I work out which wires are for the thermostat downstairs and should I disconnect them completely?

    Cheers
     
  6. stem

    stem

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    If you swap the Danfoss for the Hive as it stands, you will need to have the radiators actually 'on' to get any hot water. Would you want to do that in the summer (if we get any!)

    At the moment the radiators can be switched off with the separate room stat, but that of course will have gone. So if it's not rewired, and you fit the Hive, then to get any hot water, the heating will need to be running.

    The single wire from Danfoss terminal 1 (on) will presently be going to both, which is why it needs rewiring to separate them.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jun 2019
  7. mattyv33

    mattyv33

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    So you are saying leave the thermostat connected?

    What would be the process to have just hot water on the the hive then, turn the thermostat right down each time?

    Cheers
     
  8. stem

    stem

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    No you cannot have two thermostats running the same system. It has to go, and the Hive wired in properly. If you do what you suggest, when the hive thermostat goes off so will the hot water. The Hive room thermostat would have to be 'on' to get any hot water.

    If you did that here's a scenario for you. Iin summer it's 23 degrees in your home and you some want hot water so you will have to turn the Hive thermostat up so that the heating will come on in order to get any hot water.
     
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  10. mattyv33

    mattyv33

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    Oh right I understand now, so I will have to call an electrician in to rewire terminal 1 into 2 wires.

    Seems others have managed to wire in their hive based on your answers but mine seems a bit more technical.

    Thanks for everyone's help with this, worth a try I guess.

    Cheers
     
  11. ianmcd

    ianmcd

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    Quite the opposite , yours is a very simple one to do, the NO or call wire from your existing room thermostat will go into the hive CH on, and the wire in terminal 1 on your Randall will go into HW on in the hive, then L&N from the Randall to L&N on the hive and set the hive to Gravity, it is the most simple one to swap but if that sounds difficult then you should get someone in to do it for you
     
  12. stem

    stem

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    Yours is actually very simple....too simple and that's the problem. The wiring diagram you posted shows two wires in terminal 1. One is for Hot Water (HW) and the other is for Central Heating (CH)

    Capture.JPG

    However, your system is wired with only one for both.

    1.JPG

    Which is not wrong for the system as it stands, but has made your installation not so straight forward. If you insist on keeping the antiquated plumbing and adding Hive, assuming you have a traditional gravity system (we don't have any plumbing details to be sure) what you need to end up with is:
    Hive gravity Model (1).jpg
    The dotted permanent live to the boiler is not always required, particularly with older boilers. Earths are omitted for clarity.
     
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  13. stem

    stem

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    This would also be a good opportunity to sort out the bad wiring.

    rectification.JPG

    1) The grey outer sheath protecting the cable should pass through the metal backbox and not the individual wires.

    a.jpg


    2) There should be a rubber grommet fitted to any openings that cables pass through.

    b.JPG

    3) The bare earth wires should be covered with earth sleeve, and an earth connection should be made to the metal back box.

    c.jpg

    So all in all presently a pretty bad / dangerous installation at the moment. If you do engage the services of an electrician, don't get the same one that did this.
     
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  14. mattyv33

    mattyv33

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    Thanks for the quick and detailed reply. I bought the house 2 years ago - it is 27 years old and I presume the central heating system and Danfoss was fitted when built.

    I have cold water tank in attic, hot water cylinder in bedroom along with Danfoss and Gloworm boiler in garage.

    So as I understand:

    All N wires to N on Hive
    Terminal 1 on Danfoss goes to 3 on Hive
    L from mains to L on Hive
    L from pump to 4 on Hive

    My last question is how do I distinguish between the L wire for mains and L for pump and what happens with the linking L wire which goes from 3 to 6 on the Danfoss?

    Nearly there cheers!
     
  15. stem

    stem

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    Not quite. You need to disconnect and remove all of the wires going to / from the existing room thermostat and get rid of them. Depending on how it was wired that may have a neutral connection, so that definitely won't need reconnecting to N

    Also when you say "Terminal 1 on Danfoss goes to 3 on Hive" that's not quite right. The switched live to the boiler connects to 3 on the Hive. [At the moment the single wire in terminal 1 of the Danfoss will probably be connected to both the room thermostat and the boiler]

    I would be very surprised if the wiring was left like that when the house was built. It smacks of a later DIY alteration. Are you sure about that age of the house being 27 too? It's odd that you would have a gravity system in a house that new. They generally haven't been installed since the late 1970's / early 1980's

    So, are you sure you do actually have a gravity system? Whilst the old controls and wiring you have suggest that is most likely, a gravity system in this sense means 'gravity circulated hot water' and 'pumped central heating' nothing to go with tanks in the attic. You can have a fully pumped system and still have feed tanks in the attic.

    The term gravity relates to how the hot water cylinder is connected to the boiler, as the simplified diagram below shows. The hot water cylinder is heated by gravity circulation of water directly from the boiler. The radiators on the other hand are on a separate circuit and have water pumped around them.

    Gravity.gif

    You can find out which cable goes to the pump and which to the boiler, by either tracing them physically, or by testing the cables electrically using a multimeter. But you need to be electrically competent, understand circuits and know how to use a multimeter to do this.

    The linking wire between 3 to 6 on the Danfoss is discarded. The Dual Channel Hive has this connection already made for you internally.

    Personally I would start to strip the whole lot out and start again. If during that process, I found that there was a single cable running directly to the pump and a single cable running directly to the boiler, and that they were serviceable and could be reused I would.
     
    Last edited: 10 Jun 2019
  16. mattyv33

    mattyv33

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    This may sound daft but if I disconnect the thermostat downstairs will I be able to pull on the wire to get it out that way?

    The house was built in 1992, I was surprised it didn't have a combi but a previous plumber said it may be because it has 3 bathrooms and 14 radiators and this system was best to deal with that. It all works fine so I won't replace until the boiler breaks.

    I've just gone out and bought a multimeter, which settings do I need to use to trace which wire is which?

    When you say strip it all out, how would I start that as obviously the wires are in the wall and I wouldn't be able to go down further unless I made a hole in the wall?

    I'm determined to sort this myself but sorry for all the questions.
     
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