Another part P thread...again...Your views and oppinions

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Part P is all great in the way that it stops people doing dangerous electrical work, but why now?.. electricians have been around enough years without it..

I believe it is because of people doing electrical without proper knowledge of what they are getting into, and leading it to be dangerous.

where i work for example, in the past they have had contractors in to do various work, they converted 1 room into 2, and in the process managed to disconnect a cable which means now, a few sockets down the other end of the building fail to work. Apparently when they was carrying out the work, they also disconnected a cable which lead to half the building loosing lighting.

Other examples i have foudn in the same building, is an outdoor pond they had built, the electrical cables, none of them are protected, no MCB's or RCD for the socket. joins between sockets not waterproof, too much load on the circuit as it is wired in radial with 3, 1/2 hp motors and 2 UV lamps.

Most dangerous thing i have found though is, where an electrician, yes an electrician, shoved a waterproof socket, on top of a metal backbox then sealed it around the edge with mastic... why not just wire the socket straight into the cable and keep it waterproof? with improper earth bonding.it is because of this new rules like Part P have come about.

and it stops people who are actually competant, and do a great job from doing electrical work. I consider myself competant, i used to test all my circuits appropriately, and follow the regulations very closely, do things like never put an ouside cable in place unless it is protected, or armoured, clip all cables back safely, which is more than some electricians do.. and i do believe i do a better job than some electricians, i know most of the theory and am very carefull. But because of part p i cannot do a thing.

I am a DIY person, but because i am always doing it, and because of the kind of work i do, i am closer to the trade than DIY.

But i still canot do electrical work, and things like Part P annoy me because there are people who can do part P work, such as electricians, but some of them do work to a lesser standard than i do. I take care and pride in my work, so i always do a good job, but with electricians who do a bad job all they are interested in is a quick fix, and their money.

They should revise it, and allow people who can do work to a high standard, carry out Electrical work, as right now the stupid thing about it is, that even if you are part p qualified you need to also belong to an organisation for your qualification to be valid.

The 1 major clause in the part p though, which is stupid if you ask me.
is that you are very limited as to what electrical work you can do in your own home...but if you build a new house, or extension which requires planning permission, you can happily carry out a full installation without breaking the law, as it is considered to be covered by the planning permission.
 
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There are a few things in your post I totally agree with, and some of your post made me shake my head is despair.

Firstly, you CAN do any electrical work in a domestic premise so long as you notify the work to your BCO BEFORE you start it.

You say you feel you are competent and that you used to test your installs... so you have the hundreds of pounds worth of equipment and training to do it safely and i'm assuming you also issued EIC's/MWC's for all these installs like you are required to in order to comply with BS7671?

There is also no such thing as being 'Part P qualified' you are either a member of a self cert scheme or you are not. If you are not then that doesn't stop you doing the work, it just means if it is notifiable you must notify first.

I really do not understand your comment about building a new house and being able to do everything. The reason they can is because they are having the whole lot inspected, the same as if you added a new shower circuit or fitted a new socket in your kitchen. Same fee, same process, same rules, same lame excuses made by people like you who feel hard done by.

They aren't going to change the rules of Part P to cater for a few DIY'ers who think they can do a better job than real electricians because they can clip cables to joists neatly.
 
The Building Regulations exist to prescribe minimum standards for virtually every aspect of construction, services and performance of buildings.

A great deal of legally notifiable work of all types is carried out annually by contractors and homeowners alike in ignorance of these regulations, of which part P is but one [quite straightforward] 'chapter'.

RB is typical of the majority who have not bothered (generally through simple ignorance) to find out the facts.

Start here: http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/england/professionals/en/4000000001713.html
 
I have no expertise in electrical matters, but the rules seem completely toothless. What is the point in having laws which you can not possible enforce. How would they know whether any work I've undertaken (or anyone else for that matter) came in before or after it became illegal to perform? They can not possibly. They would have had to inspect tens of millions of homes prior to the law changing prove anything had been altered.

My worry would be: If you get a sparky round for a quote on a small job that would have only been a hundred quid or so, but they now have to spend several hours testing, or fit a new rcd cu etc and new quote several hundred quid instead, you're going to get more unqualified people doing work they would otherwise have had done professionally.

I would also worry that unscrupulous people would also use confusion over the issue to rip people off... not that any of you do that... I'm sure.
 
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firstly, that's slander.. you have no evidence that anyone has ever used peoples misunderstanding of the law for profit..

secondly, cable colours have changed so anything in new colours can will probably be a new install ( although there was a short period before Part P came in .. )

all plastic fittings and CU's have a manufacturing date embossed on it somewhere so you can clearly see it was replaced after the Part P introduction date..
 
I don't want to be argumentative but...

ColJack said:
firstly, that's slander.. you have no evidence that anyone has ever used peoples misunderstanding of the law for profit..

That's a little naive. I do not think it is possible to slander an entirely profession by saying you worry that something might happen either. Besides which I do have evidence of this. During a recent kitchen refurb I was told the supplementary bonding absolutely must be replaced or the job stopped. I was quoted £250 and asked to pay there and then. Luckily I'm not a mug and picked up the yellow pages to ask for quotes, at which point he immediately said ok £120 because I'm already here. There is a similar example on the last couple of pages I've read here. Like it or not there are people in every profession that will rip people off, and confusion about the law can only add to their ability.

secondly, cable colours have changed so anything in new colours can will probably be a new install ( although there was a short period before Part P came in .. )

So they prove you bought this cable after part p then? Plus what if I do the job with the 100m reel of cable that's been sat in the garage for the last 5 years?

all plastic fittings and CU's have a manufacturing date embossed on it somewhere so you can clearly see it was replaced after the Part P introduction date..

I don't know about CU's I personally would never attempt to replace one myself, being wholly aware of my incompetence as I am. But can I submit the address of my local handyman to be investigated because he sold 2 junction boxes and an fcu last week with no such date makings, therefore is clearly aiding and abetting a crime.
 
in reply to davy_owen_88,

i am aware that you can do work but it has to be notified..however when you go through this process it can be more expensive than getting an electrician in the 1st place.

i do have hundreds of pounds of test equipment, because i used to test all my electrical work before part p came into force, which meant i could no longer do electrical work. for safety and im not a regular DIYer.. who just clips cables back and thinks i can do a better job, i just said that in respect that i do a neater job than SOME electricians..but i also know alot of the theory and safety aspects, i am currently updating my qualifications at present so i can self certify.

The reason i feel it is stupid that somebody can wire up a whole new house, but not do any other electrical work, without limitations. is that, the whole point of part p is to set out a set of rules, which need to be abided by to do electrical work. which is fair enough, it means electrical installations are done safely..but if somebody is not competant enough to do electrical work...which is why they are restricted by part p, why should they be allowed to carry out a full installation? they havent had training on whats safe and whats not.. and the problem is with this is that, although it does get inspected by building control, there are some things which cannot be inspected, due to everything being covered over, by floorboards, plaster etc.. for a building control officer to inspect EVERYTHING he would litterally have to attend site a few times a day.

The other thing which i have a problem with is that.. somebody cant just get the qualifications and be Part P qualified, you have to also shell out thousands to join an organisation, fair enough this means standards are witheld, but at the same time this is unpracticle for people who wish to do their own work without paying huge fees to building control for inspection, or electricians. Just because somebody is doing DIY, it doesnt make them 100% incompetant, its not like everybody doing DIY is rewiring their house or something. Take for example, some electricians..been doing the job for 20-30 years... how can you call them incompetant? yet they now have to retrain, and join an organisation which is going to cost money.
 
RB2004 said:
i am aware that you can do work but it has to be notified..however when you go through this process it can be more expensive than getting an electrician in the 1st place.

The majority of small jobs are not notifiable and for those that are, I have difficulty in thinking of many that an electrician could do for less than the £100-ish inspection fee.

RB2004 said:
i do have hundreds of pounds of test equipment, because i used to test all my electrical work before part p came into force, which meant i could no longer do electrical work. for safety and im not a regular DIYer.. who just clips cables back and thinks i can do a better job, i just said that in respect that i do a neater job than SOME electricians..but i also know alot of the theory and safety aspects, i am currently updating my qualifications at present so i can self certify.

Congratulations on taking the step to get some training, what course are you taking?

RB2004 said:
The reason i feel it is stupid that somebody can wire up a whole new house, but not do any other electrical work, without limitations. is that, the whole point of part p is to set out a set of rules, which need to be abided by to do electrical work. which is fair enough, it means electrical installations are done safely..but if somebody is not competant enough to do electrical work...which is why they are restricted by part p, why should they be allowed to carry out a full installation? they havent had training on whats safe and whats not.. and the problem is with this is that, although it does get inspected by building control, there are some things which cannot be inspected, due to everything being covered over, by floorboards, plaster etc.. for a building control officer to inspect EVERYTHING he would litterally have to attend site a few times a day.

They do attend site on a regular basis. After first fix is done, work is stopped until it is inspected, when it is passed the plastering can be done, floorboards can go back etc. then after 2nd fix they come back again. It's the same process for all notifiable jobs.

RB2004 said:
The other thing which i have a problem with is that.. somebody cant just get the qualifications and be Part P qualified, you have to also shell out thousands to join an organisation, fair enough this means standards are witheld, but at the same time this is unpracticle for people who wish to do their own work without paying huge fees to building control for inspection, or electricians. Just because somebody is doing DIY, it doesnt make them 100% incompetant, its not like everybody doing DIY is rewiring their house or something. Take for example, some electricians..been doing the job for 20-30 years... how can you call them incompetant? yet they now have to retrain, and join an organisation which is going to cost money.

I had a conversation with a spark from this forum yesterday and the topic of 'how do you prove competence' came up and it all boiled down the being adequately trained and having the qualifications to prove it.

I will hold my hand up and say that SOME older 'sparks' are incompetent, being a sparky for 20-30 years doesn't mean diddly **** if they were terrible sparks for those 20-30 years, the kind that testing consists of 'does it work? If yes then job done', and I know a couple of them that hit the road when part P came along and I was happy to see part P doing it's job - weeding out cowboys.
 
mikefear said:
My worry would be: If you get a sparky round for a quote on a small job that would have only been a hundred quid or so, but they now have to spend several hours testing, or fit a new rcd cu etc and new quote several hundred quid instead, you're going to get more unqualified people doing work they would otherwise have had done professionally.
its been a requirement to test for many years, part p just means the test results go to building control -an easy process for registered sparks a more time consuming (and costly) task for the DIYer. but it does make sense to me that building control over see it, even though its a pain as i fall into the DIYer category, but Ive seen enough dodgy electrics to know its needed (yes i know it wont stop dodgy electrics but it will reduce it)
 
I thought i would just add some of my thoughts, not that they are worth much but anyway! :D

I like the original poster am not a member of any self cert schemes but do posses the majority of test gear (RCD Tester, insulation tester etc). I don't have any formal training other than a degree which doesn't seem to count for anything as someone with a C&G 2381 is deemed to be more competent than I am.

Whilst I am not trying to undermine anyone's job or qualifications. The process for going through building control is ridiculous and I would not blame competent DIY'ers for being ignorant of it.

For example, to put in an outside socket is fairly straightforward but requires £90 building notice, £35 visiting fee and my local building control require a spark to come and check it after (despite what it says on the ODPM website).

Just a few other points but my Consumer Unit which was replaced in Jan 06 does not have any date markings? and neither do some of the sockets I have purchased recently.


Just my 2p worth
 
The vast majority who object to 'Part P' as if it was some kind of brand-new, Draconian imposition designed to outlaw cowboys at a stroke, put good-old-boy-one-man-bands out of business and simultaneously provide flawless paper-trails for the taxman, probably think that government agents are watching them 24 hours a day via secret cameras hidden in their tellies.

Stop. Grow up. It was only a book. And anyway, Winston won in the end didn't he? He did, after all, learn to love Big Brother. ;)

You're all getting in a tizz over nothing. It's all very easy if you take the time to read the bleeding rules and learn for yourselves what is required, instead of listening to your mates down the pub who are only airing second-hand opinions.

DIY? The majority of DIY-ers are blissfully unaware that any of the Building Regulations affect them too, and will continue to bodge and blunder to their hearts' content. Cowboys? When did laws ever do anything other than keep the law-abiders on the straight and narrow? COwboys will never go away; they'll simply change their tactics. To expect otherwise is naive.

For every example of poor work carried out by registered sparks there will be dozens of un-publicised, compliant jobs done by people who have taken the trouble to get up to speed. In this respect Part P has raised the game of a huge number of previously electrically-ignorant tradesmen.

So, give it a rest. You're all talking utter rubbish. (Except the few who do understand... hint; they're the ones patiently trying to explain why your rants are meaningless.)
 

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