appealing planning refusal

[trevorbayliss]

I had the planning officer out today to talk about my extension at the back of the house.

It sounds like it is 60% no and 40% yes. It is not a straight forward no. I am using a current original lean-to extension as part of the new one and loosing a conservatory and free standing garage.

I intend on building a new garage at the side of the house and infill between this and the conservatory with all new extension (so conservatory will go as well).

So i am not actually adding a huge amount of new space, but because it is being organised as one block on the back of the house this mass is probably going to be too big.

It will be the full width of the house, plus 3m out to the side where the new garage will sit. The depth of the extension will be 5.5m from the back of the current lean-to extension, or 7.1m from the back of the actual house.

Any ideas on how the appeal process works ?

 

[garyo]

Have you included floor area calcs to demonstrate that you're not actually adding much?

Did the officer suggest ways of mitigating the bulk problem, such as breaking it up with a step in etc? Was it just the bulk that was the problem, or was it in relation to a neighbouring property /window?

Presumably he/she was quite open about what they thought the problem was. What were they suggesting to get it to more of an 80/20 decision or better still 100%?

 

[trevorbayliss]

She was a bit vague. She was surprised the tiled/glass lean-to wasn't coming down as she thought this was happening. This changes things a bit i think. I really think she needs some help with this one.

She didn't suggest anything as i asked her about this. I could do my extension on the back to cover the conservatory area and outside the sliding door into the kitchen. All under permitted Dev rights i think. Then i could probably build a separate garage next to this new extension, but it would have to be separate and free standing. I would loose 300mm of garage space and it would look odd. The garage would need the PP though and may not pass.

I asked about lowering the final roof line on the garden side. It is supposed to finish at 3m, but i could get it down to 2.6m. So the pitch would be a touch steeper and less impactful for the neighbour on the left side of the plot (current garage side). She said this wouldn't make any real difference as this isn't the issue.

My house is 100 years old and i think they are looking to try and keep things in a certain style. A big extension on the back just doesn't look right somehow in their eyes.

I haven't done the floor area calcs, but i will look into that i suppose and send her an email this weekend.

 

[^woody^]

You need to know the reasons for refusal before you can even think about an appeal. You will appeal specifically on those reasons.

 

[garyo]

Was she visiting you for the site visit because you've already applied, or was it a visit for pre-application advice?

You have a few chances to get it right within the context of a single application, but I'm not sure what stage you're at:

- Get some specific pre-app advice or have an informal chat about your specific situation, and look at similar developments that have been agreed/rejected to get a feel for where the land lies.
- Read your planning policy to determine whether your proposal should be allowed. This is linked to the point above... all rejections will have an accompanying list of policy points that they don't comply with, and allows you to understand how the policy is interpreted/applied by the officers.
- Submit your application based on what you want to do, perhaps with a degree of compromise following the pre-app chat.
- During the application, stay in touch with your case officer. Just after the site visit (around ~3 weeks in) give him/her a call to get a sense of whether they're going to recommend for approval or whether they find it unacceptable for whatever reason. If the latter, then you have the opportunity to address those reasons and submit revised plans there and then (if your plan drawer can move quickly enough) but this assumes that you're willing to make that compromise. If not then you can take your chance... perhaps the case officers boss will have a slightly different view.
- If you get rejection, you can choose to compromise and resubmit other plans, or use the appeal process.

If you have timescale constraints, then you may favour compromise over engaging with the appeals process.

 

[^woody^]

When you submit an application and it is assessed, including the site visit, you can ask the planner about whether they are happy with the design or not. You can then decide whether any changes are necessary to meet the planner's opinion, or whether the design does meet the relevenant council policies. You can then also decide whether to make any requested changes or refute the planners opinions and stick with your design.

Planners can be wrong and can misinterpret their own policies. If you are correct, tell them. Its also commom for planners opinions to be over-rulled by their manager when the final decision is taken, or by the committee if it goes down that route.

Otherwise, if you are confident that your design conforms to policy, then let them reject it and appeal.

 

[garyo]

Its also commom for planners opinions to be over-rulled by their manager when the final decision is taken

What proportion of times, in your experience?

 

[^woody^]

What proportion of times, in your experience?

Sorry that might not have been clear. It relates to my comment about planners being wrong and misinterpreting their policies. If you present an argument as to why the design conforms, then the manager will over-rule the planner before the decision is made.

Planners have to prepare a quite hefty report on the application and how it meets or does not meet the council's policies and why the application should be approved or refused. Typically this will be discussed at a meeting before the report is finalised. If a strong enough argument can be presented, then the manager (who may take more things into account than the planner would) could alter the outcome.

Its not a case of the planner being over-ruled a certain number of times.

 

[garyo]

You comment reminded me of a post on here a couple of months ago. The OP said that his planning officer had recommended for approval, and then he found that permission was refused. I wondered how common that was.

In your experience then, is that change in stance known up front and in most cases the case officer would come back to the applicant and forewarn them and given them a second opportunity at adjusting some element of the scheme?

 

[^woody^]

Normally, the will be a weekly meeting to rubber stamp the planner's report, and that's where things might change. There would be no opportunity to then consult with the applicant.

If there is early on-going discussion between the applicant/planner/manager, then things will be known (or can ne altered) before the final meeting and the outcome would not change.

 

[trevorbayliss]

Where i am at =

I have applied for planning after a neighbourhood consultation was rejected (my architect said to try a NHC first).

Yesterday was the site visit of the planning officer.

She noted a lot of examples in my location of extensions (big ones). My neighbour has a monster garage and conservatory next door. Next door but 2 there is a long extension on a much smaller house than mine. She commented on these two things. My house is a 4 bed semi and i would get my extension under permitted dev rights i think, minus the garage.

It is the garage which is causing problems. It is stuck in the garden and prevents us from really enjoying this space. This is why i initially thought about moving the garage up to the house and use the dead space which is patio. But if you use this space for a garage, and then fill in the full length of my house i get an new garden room and utility and the conservatory disappears.

The issue seems to be this is a big mass of building stuck on the back of my house and so it isn't wanted in the planners eyes. Thats what i understood from speaking to her. Individual units of garage, garden room would be ok, but not all set together.

Will my councils planning policy give me some help ? Will it be on the council website ? I need to do a bit more research.

I actually have an aerial photo of my house and the neighbours which i must print off and show them it.

 

[^woody^]

The look of big extensions is always a problem, and "bulk and mass" can be a valid reason for rejection.

There are fundamental design concepts relating to how extensions look, how they connect to the existing house, and how they harmonise with the site. These may or may not be specifically mentioned in supplementary planning guidance, or they may just come from the planner's opinion.

 

[trevorbayliss]

If i keep my garage where it is and do my full extension on the back, but only take up the back of the house and don't poke 3m to the side i can have the extension under permitted development. BUT the reason why i want this extension is to free the garden from a big garage and put it next to the house in the space where the bins sit (an unused space really).

I wonder if i should do this in stages instead. But i think the garage would have to be a separate building from any extension.

I ran some figures last night and this is how they work out:

I will be loosing a 27 sqm garage and a 16 sqm conservatory. So 43 sqm of space will be removed.

The lean to extension which is original to the property takes up 11.6 sqm, so i am not including this in the new space created.

The new garage, garden room and utility will take up 52 sqm of new space.

If we take away the lost space from the old garage and conservatory I am actually adding 9 sqm of new space.

So i am not adding too much space overall, just how it is configured.

 

[^woody^]

It's got nothing to do with m2 of space, but how it all looks and works together with the main house and neighbours.

Planner's don't care if you lose space or use it inefficiently.

 

[trevorbayliss]

The planned extension has been rejected by email, so not formal at moment.

I have asked if i can use my permitted dev right to extend the width of the house and 6m out. I think this should be ok.

PLUS i will build a new storage shed at the bottom of my garden. I want this to be 9m in width by 4m in depth. I think this is also ok. This way i can then get rid of my horrible sectional garage which will be right next to the new extension. This will then become patio and garden.