Are all built-in ovens this rubbish?

[Billpy]

My kitchen has a Howdens (Diplomat) built-in, gas oven fitted. It is a very poor piece of equipment. My main issue is that it seems to have a fan on the outside of its casing (at the back?) which, when the oven is on, blows air around the casing and out into the kitchen. I assume this is a safety feature to cool the outside of the oven and prevent the surrounding kitchen units becoming too hot.
The result is that when in use, it pumps heat out into the kitchen (usually onto my legs or up my shirt) making life unbearably hot. It seems madness to me to have an oven which is being cooled on the outside and heated on the inside. What a waste of energy and money!
To make matters worse, the oven is made from flimsy materials and so retains very little heat on the inside, (i.e. it has very little thermal mass). For example it takes 50 minutes to cook a few oven chips and anything on the lower shelf simply warms up rather than baking.
My question is; Are all built-in ovens cooled externally in this way? Surely a well made, properly insulated oven would remain cool enough on the outside not to need air blasting around its casing? I'd like to buy a new oven but not if they are all this poor. I would rather rip out the units and install a free-standing cooker.

 

[Jackrae]

Would be glad to see what responses you get from this one.
We have a free standing gas oven (pushed between adjacent kitchen units) which is equally as useless. Top "hot", bottom "cold", and incapable of baking a deep cake because of the thermal gradient. At one time gas ovens were the dogs b^ll^cks, so what's gone wrong ?
I think the old designs used to heat the internal casing (or box) and the casing then radiated heat into the chamber. However our current one simply has a flame at the back which produces warm moist air which rises to the top.
Does anyone make a gas oven with a circulating fan to ensure even temperature at all levels.

 

[Pigeon85]

Same problems with a free standing gas oven so swapped it for a built in electric oven and gas hob have never been happier even the grill toasts the whole slice of bread and not just the middle

 

[Billpy]

It would be good if someone with knowledge about these built-in appliances makes a comment. I could fit a single electric built-under oven as long as it uses less than 13A on full load. I have a spare fused spur.
However I'm not convinced that an electric oven wouldn't share the same problem of having a fan-cooled casing?
I appreciate that better ovens will perform better. What I'm getting at is whether this is shortcoming of ALL built-ins, or just the crap one I have.
My wife would prefer a gas oven and so would I, for the cost savings (Gas is about half the price of electric per Kw/h).
However if the gas oven is wasting energy then it's no saving at all.
Any experts out there?

 

[kbdiy]

Not an expert but have had a built-in electric fan oven for years and it has performed faultlessly - much better temperature control than gas so the extra cost is outweighed by superior performance (IMHO). Gas hob and electric oven is the best combination in my view.

 

[Terox]

Howdens sell appliances under the Lamona brand, which used to be under the name Diplomat. They do not manufacture any appliances themselves these are all out sourced.

The fan the O.P mentioned is the cooling fan. Standards state that "Must touch" areas (Control Knobs and handles) should never exceed a certain temperature. This varies with the type of material the "Must touch" area is made of, eg plastic, glass or metal

Typically this would be in the region of 60 Deg C + ambient after the oven has been on for 1 hour at approx 220 Deg C (Gas mark 7) The ambient at this time in a typical kitchen would be something like 21 to 24 Deg C, so the actual maximum temperature of the control knobs and handles would be in the Mid 80 Deg C area.

Cooling fans are not there to cool the oven/grill down, they are there so that these temperatures are not exceeded.

It sounds like your Diplomat is actually built by Stoves, who used to sell cooker to MFI/Howdens. These ovens Forward vent, meaning the oven flues are at the front, normally a strip of metal where the top run of the door seal would be.

All ovens vent, most of them at the rear. This is not ideal for built in appliances as it stain s the cupboards at the rear and can be a hazard.

Unfortunately because folks now buy on price not quality it forces British manufacturers to cut costs wherever they can to compete with foreign imports such as Beko.

This has a knock on effect and leaves the consumer in a catch 22 situation which they caused themselves.

Very basically the chain of events is

1) Customer buys on price.
2) Major retailers such as Curry's force the manufacturers to sell appliances to them cheaper
3) To do this manufacturers have to buy cheaper parts
4) The parts manufacturers then have to make their parts cheaper, eg cheaper thinner materials etc
5) Appliances are therefore more tinny, not as reliable etc
6) The worst end result for this chain of events is parts manufacturers who were capable of making quality parts have now gone bust. (Diamond H for example) This leaves the cheaper parts manufacturers who maybe don't have the expertise to create parts for the appliance manufacturers andso the circle continues and the top end quality continues to drop to compete with the bottom end.

We live in a decrepid, attrocious country.

The govt should entice British folks to buy British products where the raw materials and the parts are all sourced and made in the UK. The Germans do this, but Oh no, not us, we buy crap from abroad and will continue to do this until we have no more British manufacturers or a skill base that can create these goods

 

[Billpy]

Thanks for the detailed reply Terox.
Funnily enough although the oven is very cheaply made, it was not cheap to buy (not from Howdens anyway) Luckily, we "negotiated" a dicount of approximately 70% via our joiner who fitted the kitchen. (the "list price" of the cooker hood was £700 before our discount). All kidology, I know, but at the time we just wanted appliences which would fit our new kitchen. I'd never had built-in anything before this. I've always bought Bosch appliances (usually second hand) and they are fit for the job. Although I did have a Hotpoint fridge freezer (British?) that was excellent and reliable.
I genuinely did not realise that appliance could be this crappy until I started using our kitchen. The fridge and dishwasher are also tinny, awkward and poor. (all via Howdens).
However my original question remains: If I spend a bit more on a good quality, brand name, built-in oven (gas or electric) can I expect better performance that what I have now (ie food cooks faster without filling the room with hot, smelly air) or are all built in ovens worse peforming than their free-standing counterparts?
Any one know?

 

[Terox]

The more you pay the better quality you get.
The problem is that the upper end quality is not as good as it used to be and as each year goes by and more and more UK manufacturers go bust or are bought out by companies like Merloni (Hotpoint) they get closer and closer to the lower end stuff.

Ovens made abroad, especially in warmer climes are built to reheat not roast as we are used to in the UK.
As one major importing manufacturer once stated to me while on the phone to their tech desk.

"The ovens are not meant for cooking, just warming things up, for students and the like".

^^ Or words to that effect. )I jest you not)

 

[Billpy]

Yeah,
That's the kind of oven I have; "not for cooking, just warming things up". You've got to laugh...

 

[foxhole]

Modern ovens are highly insulated and usually less than 1kw now, so just as economical as gas.

 

[flameport]

If you must have a gas built in oven, your choices will be extremely limited and will be a rather high price for poor quality junk.

Get a built in electric oven from one of the better brands such as Neff, Bosch or Siemens (all of which are essentially the same company). It will be vastly superior than the gas effort you have now, and probably a lot cheaper to run, even though it's electric.

 

[Billpy]

Thanks for all the advice,
I'm not particularly hung up on a gas oven. I've had a look and fan-assisted gas ovens don't seem to exist.
The extra efficiency of the (electric) fan oven probably brings running costs closer to gas. Plus, if its a better insulated oven it has to better than the junk I have now. I find myself avoiding cetrain foods when shopping because I dread cooking them in this oven. It is a much better kitchen heater than it is an oven.
I've read Which? magazine and there's a John Lewis, single electric, model for £599 that comes out tops. Seems a lot of cash but you do get what you pay for.
I just hope I can get one that can be put on a 13A ring. It is actually quite difficult to unearth the actuall full-power consumption of these ovens. Manufactures seem to quote Kwh rather than Kw? What's that all about? How do they know how long I'll be using my oven for?
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