Are all professionals, professional?

[dolph]

Over the years as an avid DIYER all trades on this site have been fantastic, you have all helped me produce really good results and I have learned so much.

However I believe you professionals are being let down so badly by some of your colleagues out there. My daughter bought a brand new Crest Nicholson house in North Weald, Essex in April.

I have spent a couple of weeks there doing my dad bit, putting up blinds, flat packing, bog roll holders, you know the normal bits needed in a new house.

Lasy week I went down there to replace the "low energy" bare lights with fittings she had purchased. There were 5 ceiling roses that had to be replaced. I was disgusted to find all five were held up to the ceiling with one screw, although four of these were at least screwed into the joist above (one had a flex hole two inches square -why?).

The one at the top of the stairs was held up with just one screw into plasterboard, you think they could have afforded a plug! To rub salt into the wound this light was within 18 inches from the loft hatch; I was able to put a wooden board over the flex hole to screw into without going into the loft, just by leaning off the loft ladder.

OK I put everyone right, but really should I have had to. Professionals very often quote Part P this, Regulation L that, etc. and they are quite right to do so, but please some of them need to get the basics right before they pontificate on DIYers getting things dangerously wrong.

Please chaps I am not getting at you on here, you have always been great, but if you are actally involved in "seminars" or such please tell some others to try to work correctly so that the respect your professions are held in stays!

 

[Wontdothatagain]

It is a simple fact of life that there will always be people that will cut corners, use inferior materials and not take pride in there work.

In my line of work, 1 in 10 of every job that i do in audited and there are still people having their authorization being revoked on a daily basis.

Unless the end user want to pay a lot more, things will never change.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Well, I am sure you already know the answer to your question.
I expect it is the same in your line of work, whatever that may be.

Some people care, some people do not.

Regarding the two inch hole; this could have been for a junction box to be put up above the ceiling.
As one of the lights was screwed to just plasterboard probably shows that it was not original to the building so could have been fitted by anyone.
I am not making excuses but these badly installed fittings could have been done by the previous owner. Even if not, whoever ordered the work obviously didn't care either.

 

[sparkticus]

Dolph, your words and sentiments do not go amiss. To directly answer your question NO not all professionals act professionally. That goes for any profession or trade.

The construction industry has more than its fair share of real professionals and more than its unfair share of cowboys.

My definition of a cowboy: an individual who consistently takes no pride in the details of his work which results in a poor and possibly unsafe result.

You can get unqualified cowboys
You can get qualified cowboys
You can get inexperienced cowboys
You can get experienced cowboys

Almost anyone (in my opinion) can be trained to do anything and that includes hitting a nail into a piece of wood to neural surgery. We as a society appear to filter young people by level of education (GCSEs/A levels etc) What we really need to do (in my opinion) is focus on aptitude.

Provided an individual can learn at a "reasonable rate" and most people can then guide them into what they would be good at not what their qualifications say.

My thoughts on this subject will not be for everyone because I say if someone wants to be a doctor then screw that fact that they can't spell or have a bit of trouble with mental arithmetic or can't quite grasp chemical bonding. Take them into medical school if you think they will make a good doctor. Same for all professions. I have no reason for picking on doctors, it is just an example that shows (I hope) that I have no regard for the current system of filtering people by qualifications. If someone wants to be an electrician, plumber, general builder, dentist, nurse, VET, fisherman then look for aptitude as a primary factor not qualifications as a primary factor.

There is an argument to say that aptitude is taken into account but in reality that is just lip service. If you have the aptitude then you will, by your own volition, get the qualifications, understand what you studied and practice professionally.

As for what you call part P. I am an electrician registered for self certification though I do not do much domestic work. That self certification registration process is not rigorous enough (it's not even close) There is a minor (lethargic) move to improve it but don't hold your breath for significant results.

 

[JohnW2]

...As one of the lights was screwed to just plasterboard probably shows that it was not original to the building so could have been fitted by anyone. I am not making excuses but these badly installed fittings could have been done by the previous owner. Even if not, whoever ordered the work obviously didn't care either.

... but ...

My daughter bought a brand new Crest Nicholson house in North Weald, Essex in April.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Oh, sorry missed that.

In that case, I blame typically bad British management.

I would add that this modern, lackadaisical, couldn't-care-less attitude not only, in my opinion, starts at the 'top' but seems to be, for some reason I have yet to fathom, actively encouraged.

 

[seasickstevie]

A small detail dolph, but flex is the (white usually) stuff that hangs down from the ceiling rose to the lampholder.
The stuff feeding the rose through the loft etc is called cable.

It's just that I had a vision of a two-inch hole in the ceiling rose cover!

 

[JohnW2]

Oh, sorry missed that. In that case, I blame typically bad British management. I would add that this modern, lackadaisical, couldn't-care-less attitude not only, in my opinion, starts at the 'top' but seems to be, for some reason I have yet to fathom, actively encouraged.

Indeed,in some cases.

Speed (even when due to cut corners) = money...
... hence presumably the fact that it's sometimes encouraged by those pocketing the profits!

An irony is that, provided they know what they are doing, DIYers are often amongst the most conscientious - not the least because they have no motivation to rip themselves off!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[sparkticus]

Professionals very often quote Part P this, Regulation L that, etc. and they are quite right to do so, but please some of them need to get the basics right before they pontificate on DIYers getting things dangerously wrong.

An intimate knowledge of the building regs is always required. However, that intimate knowledge of the regs needs to be underpinned with scientific knowledge so that the regulations can be interpreted appropriately for the individual circumstances. In the last few years there has been an imbalance in terms of "remembering" regulations versus "understanding" the underlying science. In one sense this is a problem caused (or at least initiated) from the top down but all individuals need to be accountable for their own actions and accountable for what they "take on" This problem (wherever it was initiated from) has allowed the industry to become polluted by under-trained people some of them lacking aptitude for the job.

 

[JohnW2]

My thoughts on this subject will not be for everyone because I say if someone wants to be a doctor then screw that fact that they can't spell or have a bit of trouble with mental arithmetic or can't quite grasp chemical bonding. Take them into medical school if you think they will make a good doctor. Same for all professions. I have no reason for picking on doctors, it is just an example that shows (I hope) that I have no regard for the current system of filtering people by qualifications. If someone wants to be an electrician, plumber, general builder, dentist, nurse, VET, fisherman then look for aptitude as a primary factor not qualifications as a primary factor.

I totally agree.

It so happens that a close friend of mine is involved in selecting candidates for entry to a medical school, and that medical school has an unusually enlightened approach. By policy, they reserve an appreciable proportion of places (around 25% if I recall) for applicants whose predicted A-Level results are not particularly good but whom, for whatever reason, they feel probably have the aptitude to be trained as, and become, good doctors.

They have been applying that policy for a good few years and he says that they have so far very rarely been disappointed by the students selected in that way. He usually adds (which should come as no surprise to any of us) that some of the 'academic high-flyers' to whom they give places do not end up as particlularly good doctors.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[sparkticus]

They have been applying that policy for a good few years and he says that they have so far very rarely been disappointed by the students selected in that way. He usually adds (which should come as no surprise to any of us) that some of the 'academic high-flyers' to whom they give places do not end up as particlularly good doctors.

Exactly and I am glad to read this. Everyday medicine needs people with aptitude. Though I would say, some of the academic high-flyers may well go on to take a PhD and make good/excellent medical researchers

 

[JohnW2]

Exactly and I am glad to read this. Everyday medicine needs people with aptitude. Though I would say, some of the academic high-flyers may well go on to take a PhD and make good/excellent medical researchers

True - although some of the academic high-flyers get their PhDs and MDs and then go on to be very good clinicians - academic ecellence and vocational aptitude are not necessarily mutually exclusive even though, as we are discussing, one often gets one without the other.

At least the days are gone when one could get into medical school by excelling in rowing or rugby, but little else

Kind Regards, John.

 

[sparkticus]

At least the days are gone when one could get into medical school by excelling in rowing or rugby, but little else

Yes, there is at least that!

 

[sparkticus]

academic ecellence and vocational aptitude are not necessarily mutually exclusive even though, as we are discussing, one often gets one without the other.

That point is very true. Often such facets manifest (awaken) in an individual at different points in their life/career but occasionally aligning for acceptable periods of time. Which makes me think I should only see my doctor during these periods or make sure I see more than one at a time

This probably applies to electricians too

 

[JohnW2]

At least the days are gone when one could get into medical school by excelling in rowing or rugby, but little else

Yes, there is at least that!

I can tell a story from an interview for a medical school place at one of the more 'stuffy' (at the time) London medical schools not much more than 40 years ago. Having first established that the candidate's father had not trained at their medical school, the 'old school' interviewers were noticably shocked to discover that the father was not a doctor at all, and even more shocked to discover that 'there were no medical men in the family'. After then enquiring about rowing and rugby, and learning that the candidate had no skills in those areas, one interviewer then turned to the other and asked why on earth the candidate had been called for interview! A very brief interview, despite the fact that the candidate was quite academically accomplished!

Kind Regards, John.