Are all professionals, professional?

[shaky1105]

I'm a cable jointer working on the BT contract and some of the stuff I see (even brand-new work ) makes me realise why BT have so many auditors following us up

But you cannot tell the people responsible for the bad workmanship anything, the usual response is "it's just the BT Auditors being anal"

Seems like it's the same across all trades.

 

[EFLImpudence]

academic ecellence and vocational aptitude are not necessarily mutually exclusive even though, as we are discussing, one often gets one without the other.

I note that this debate is between two contributors who DO spell and write correctly.
I have no practical experience in this matter, as do you.

To what do either of you attribute the ability to 'be good at English'?
Is it intelligence, cleverness (there is a difference), caring, liking, logic, something else or is it 'just one of those things?

If you can become a successful doctor without being good at English then this raises the question 'Why can't a successful doctor learn how to spell and write properly?'
Does a proportion of the population, or does everyone, suffer from dyslexia to varying degrees - from 0% to 100%?

This may be acceptable for a doctor or other such 'hands-on' professions and trades but would you trust (would you anyway?) a solicitor or a politician who could not spell?
As you may recall I have complained in the past about people's grammar and speech when this is the most important, if not sole, part of their job e.g. journalists and radio and television reporters.

Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs) always says 'rooves'. This irritates me because he is a writer, designer and television presenter and his programme is about buildings. How can it be that noone has EVER told him this is wrong? I am not really bothered if David Beckham says it.

Emperor's clothes again perhaps?

 

[JohnW2]

I'm a cable jointer working on the BT contract and some of the stuff I see (even brand-new work ) makes me realise why BT have so many auditors following us up
But you cannot tell the people responsible for the bad workmanship anything, the usual response is "it's just the BT Auditors being anal"
Seems like it's the same across all trades.

As you say, it unfortunately happens in all trades and professions these days. There are, of course, still a good few people who exercise 'old-fashioned' conscientiouness and 'pride in their work' - but sadly, a good few who don't. I have to say that I've more often been shocked than impressed by the quality of work of most trades (building, electrical, plumbing etc.) in new properties over the past two or three decades - but if one looks at work done 50+ years ago, even though it may now be 'past it', the 'pride in their work' still often oozes out of what one sees.

I've heard it suggested that one possible solution would to pay people not according to time taken or number of jobs completed but, rather, on the basis of regular independent audits of the quality of their work!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[cumbriahandyman]

Exactly and I am glad to read this. Everyday medicine needs people with aptitude. Though I would say, some of the academic high-flyers may well go on to take a PhD and make good/excellent medical researchers

I can remember when our police were recruited on aptitude and they made damn good officers. Today, candidates are recruited on academic qualifications.

 

[Paul_C]

Today, candidates are recruited on academic qualifications.

And minority quotas.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Today, candidates are recruited on academic qualifications.

 

[sparkticus]

If you can become a successful doctor without being good at English then this raises the question 'Why can't a successful doctor learn how to spell and write properly?'

I don't know the answer to that specific question though I know it will be a complex answer. I do know at least one very good doctor who openly admits to poor spelling.

Does a proportion of the population, or does everyone, suffer from dyslexia to varying degrees - from 0% to 100%?

Yes and it becomes clinically significant at and beyond a certain threshold.

This may be acceptable for a doctor or other such 'hands-on' professions and trades but would you trust (would you anyway?) a solicitor or a politician who could not spell?

I would never trust a politician under any circumstances

As for a solicitor, what if they are really good in court etc and just not good at spelling?

But I see your point. You could perhaps argue that a solicitor who can not spell may not have the desired skill set (IE aptitude) for the job?

 

[JohnW2]

I note that this debate is between two contributors who DO spell and write correctly.

That's flattering, but I have to say that my spelling has always been far from perfect, and my typing even worse!

To what do either of you attribute the ability to 'be good at English'? Is it intelligence, cleverness (there is a difference), caring, liking, logic, something else or is it 'just one of those things?

I suspect it's mainly down to the quality of teaching in the earliest years of school. We've been through some very weird phases over the decades, including one in which young children were initially being deliberately taught to spell incorrectly (basically phonetically) with the intention of correcting this later. In my case, I think that any writing skills I now have are probably the consequence of having to do an awful lot of writing (and 'technical reading') over a large number of years! .... of course (and this one will be controversial!) another factor may be that during my formative years at school, bad grammar or spelling could easily result in a sore backside!

If you can become a successful doctor without being good at English then this raises the question 'Why can't a successful doctor learn how to spell and write properly?'

I'm sure that (unless they were serioulsy dyslexic) nearly all of them could - and, to be fair, the majority of doctors probably do already have pretty good language skills, at least in their 'first language' (which may or may not be English, even in those practising in the UK). Provided a doctor can communicate effectively (and I'd be a first to agree that there are a good few who can't), I don't think I'd feel that their language skills (or lack of them) had any bearing on their ability to practise medicine.

Does a proportion of the population, or does everyone, suffer from dyslexia to varying degrees - from 0% to 100%?

As you imply (and just as they say is the case with 'sexual orientation'!), I imagine that it's a continuum ranging from 0 to 100%. Dyslexia obviously is not just 'absent/present'.

This may be acceptable for a doctor or other such 'hands-on' professions and trades but would you trust (would you anyway?) a solicitor or a politician who could not spell?

I don't think I would regard their ability to spell as having any relevance to their ability as a solicitor or politician. In any event, in this day and age bad spelling should only occur if people choose to ignore (or not use) a spellchecker! Many brilliant mathematicians are (in)famous for being hopeless at basic arithmetic! However, in all these professions, the ability to communicate (even if with poor spelling/grammar) clearly is crucial.

As you may recall I have complained in the past about people's grammar and speech when this is the most important, if not sole, part of their job e.g. journalists and radio and television reporters.

I have a lot of sympathy with that view, even if it is probably an 'old-fashioned' one - but, as you say, you're talking there about people for whom language is fundamental to their job.

Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs) always says 'rooves'. This irritates me because he is a writer, designer and television presenter and his programme is about buildings. How can it be that noone has EVER told him this is wrong?

Yes, that sort of thing irritates me, too. However, in some cases it can be due to pronouciation and/or accent. Do you think he actually writes 'rooves', or is that his apparent pronounciation of 'roofs'? .. and what about the language which creeps across the Atlantic? 'Snuck' and 'Pled' get hairs standing up on my neck!! ... and the disappearance of syllables (like 'dilatation' having apparently become 'dilation' whilst I wasn't looking!). Of course, even you and I probably have to acknowledge that language should be allowed to evolve. I've also commented on situations in which use of language irritates me when it indicates blind use of words without true understanding - e.g. when people talk about 'the adiabatic equation', rather than 'an adiabatic equation'.

However,as you will have seen me championing in recent days, I think that all trades and professions should be conscious of the fact that their technical language/jargon may differ from everyday language, and that they should therefore 'make allowances' and/or modify the vocabulary they use, when communicating with people outside of their trade/profession.

I think I've written far too much - hopefully without too many typographical, spelling or grammatical errors

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

I can remember when our police were recruited on aptitude and they made damn good officers. Today, candidates are recruited on academic qualifications.

Indeed. There are many trades and professions for which academic ability (and qualifications) is very much of secondaty importance, but this seems to get overlooked.

I suppose this is at least partially the consequence of increasing expectations as regards (academic) education. The proportion of people being educated to A-Level or degree level has increased dramatically - and when people have the resulting certificates to wave around, I suppose it's not surprising that they get taken into account when recruiting, even when the academic education concerned has little relevance to the job or training concerned. I reckon that entry into training for many trades (and some professions) at age 16 would result in much-better-trained (and competent) end products than does an extra 5 or 6 years (or more!) in full-time academic 'general education' is likely to achieve.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ericmark]

Having been diagnosed as dyslexic I was surprised to be told it is very common with engineers. It seems the different way the sufferers think also means they are good at engineering. So bad spelling may mean you have a good one.

But there are good and bad in every trade and it is hard to work out which are which at times. I had two guys working for me. One very good but lazy the other pretty poor but eager to learn, honest, and hard working. It was the latter I selected to keep when the job was running down. If he couldn't do a job he would ask. The good guy was too proud and would get it working but not always the right way.

So as a foremen the good guy was far more work for me. And I am sure he sneaked some poor workmanship past me. But it's not all down to the person doing the work.

On one job we had a load of scaffolders who's work was very good. Most followed us to next job where the scaffold was really poor. It was down to the management and the times given to do the work, plus the equipment supplied.

And the size of the firm does not give any indication as to quality. I went to work for a large firm fitting cookers. No earth loop impedance meter provided, very short time allowed, and I could not leave quick enough. Yet the same firm also fitted gas cookers and with the gas it was completely different story. The gas fitter had every aid he could ask for loads more time to do the job and was instructed to refuse any job which did not 100% comply.

 

[sparkticus]

Having been diagnosed as dyslexic I was surprised to be told it is very common with engineers. It seems the different way the sufferers think also means they are good at engineering. So bad spelling may mean you have a good one.

That is interesting and something I have heard several times. I am no expert but I think (suspect) we learn to read by essentially recognising patterns then assigning intonations to the patterns. Though we may individually arrive at the "assignments" via different avenues. So this is essentially a "spatial" process of aligning tones with shapes. Engineers tend to exhibit enhanced spatial awareness and I wonder if some methods of learning to read simply do not fit that process well.

 

[bernardgreen]

Are all professionals, professional?

By definition yes, but the quality and ethic of the work that some of them display shows clearly that they are little more than bodgers.

As some one said an informed DIYer is likely to do a better job than some of those "in the profession".

What is worrying is when a "professional" can work to a high standard on some projects and on others works to a very low standard. It is obvious these charlatans know how to do the work correctly but choose not to do it properly on some projects.

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[sparkticus]

I reckon that entry into training for many trades (and some professions) at age 16 would result in much-better-trained (and competent) end products than does an extra 5 or 6 years (or more!) in full-time academic 'general education' is likely to achieve.

Yes absolutely. My brother works in a a transfusion & haematology lab at a hospital. He started there at age 17 with just O-levels. He was sent to college then university on day/block release and eventually gained a BSc in human physiology and later an MPhil in biochemistry. But he contributed in a huge way to research papers written years before he got his first degree based only on practical experience and some fundamental study. In fact 30 years on he jokes that the academic study simply improved his ability to communicate/convey ideas. What he is critical about is that when he started work it was part of the job to interact with patients, take blood samples and do "bleeding tests" to estimate INR/PT times which made the job interesting. Now new entrants come in with a degree, have no patient exposure at all, don't want patient exposure, spend all their time filling out their CPD forms, filling up analytical machines to do the testing for them and generally complain that the job is boring. But worse, have barely any contact with front line doctors who need these results urgently and have no empathy for the needs of the doctors & nurses.

Actually, it really does seem that all trades and professions suffer from modernism

 

[JohnW2]

Are all professionals, professional?

By definition yes, but the quality and ethic of the work that some of them display shows clearly that they are little more than bodgers.

This is really another of those sematic/language issues again, because I don't really agree literally with your 'yes'.... 'being a professional' is, indeed, something which is either true or not, by definition. However, 'being professional' / 'acting professionally' is very different, and is by no means true of all who are 'professionals'.

As some one said an informed DIYer is likely to do a better job than some of those "in the profession".

Indeed - that was me. As I said, some who are, by definition, not professionals (i.e. who are 'amateurs') are often more 'professional' in what they do than are some professionals.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[sparkticus]

As I said, some who are, by definition, not professionals (i.e. who are 'amateurs') are often more 'professional' in what they do than are some professionals.

Yes "professionalism" can be adopted by all. In this sense it is a culture not a title.