Are these the emperor's new clothes - thermodynamic panels
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Hi guys,
I was at the DECC's consultation on the RHI scheme in Cambridge yesterday, and there was plenty of interest in these systems from MCS installers and the DECC.
These are air source heat pumps with the evaporator on the roof. The manufacturer has certified the evaporator as a solar panel.
The DECC *may* allow them to claim "air to water heat pump" RHI payments... ...if they can demonstrate that they meet the minimum performance requirements for air source heat pumps (seasonally adjusted coefficient of performance >2.5)
The DECC are also asking for some sort of evidence from the manufacturer that systems will last for 20 years. Many air to air heat pumps that are adapted air conditioners can't meet this. (they have a design life of cooling a couple of hours a day for half a season, not daily heating for many more hours hours all season)
The manufacturer of these "solar heaters" has not had them tested. <wearing my engineer hat> These appear to be cheap fridge type compressors. Typical COP is 1.5 (2.5 as a heat pump) but only across a small (15C) temperature difference. Try to drive 55C hot water and their performance will fall off a cliff. Note that in club med this works a lot better, as your roof temperatures will be up there. (so does any basic half decent solar thermal system though!) Not so in the UK.
Note that they will require additional heating to meet anti-legionella requirements - over 60C to the base of the cylinder is needed, not 55C part way up.
I'll paraphrase the exact words that the DECC used when asked if they would be eligible for the solar-thermal RHI. "LOL" "ROFLOL" "LMFAO" or "ROFLMFAO" would be appropriate.
The RHI is a proposal at the moment; the final rules will come later; this "gaming" of a poor quality heat pump as a solar thermal system will not be permitted.
You'd be able to keep the RHPP if an installer mis-sold you a system, and you'll be able to sue their ass off in the civil court to obtain the promised RHI, but you'll not get the RHI from HM Treasury!
Buyer beware...
I was at the DECC's consultation on the RHI scheme in Cambridge yesterday, and there was plenty of interest in these systems from MCS installers and the DECC.
These are air source heat pumps with the evaporator on the roof. The manufacturer has certified the evaporator as a solar panel.
The DECC *may* allow them to claim "air to water heat pump" RHI payments... ...if they can demonstrate that they meet the minimum performance requirements for air source heat pumps (seasonally adjusted coefficient of performance >2.5)
The DECC are also asking for some sort of evidence from the manufacturer that systems will last for 20 years. Many air to air heat pumps that are adapted air conditioners can't meet this. (they have a design life of cooling a couple of hours a day for half a season, not daily heating for many more hours hours all season)
The manufacturer of these "solar heaters" has not had them tested. <wearing my engineer hat> These appear to be cheap fridge type compressors. Typical COP is 1.5 (2.5 as a heat pump) but only across a small (15C) temperature difference. Try to drive 55C hot water and their performance will fall off a cliff. Note that in club med this works a lot better, as your roof temperatures will be up there. (so does any basic half decent solar thermal system though!) Not so in the UK.
Note that they will require additional heating to meet anti-legionella requirements - over 60C to the base of the cylinder is needed, not 55C part way up.
I'll paraphrase the exact words that the DECC used when asked if they would be eligible for the solar-thermal RHI. "LOL" "ROFLOL" "LMFAO" or "ROFLMFAO" would be appropriate.
The RHI is a proposal at the moment; the final rules will come later; this "gaming" of a poor quality heat pump as a solar thermal system will not be permitted.
You'd be able to keep the RHPP if an installer mis-sold you a system, and you'll be able to sue their ass off in the civil court to obtain the promised RHI, but you'll not get the RHI from HM Treasury!
Buyer beware...
This is going to be the next big mis-selling issue if the general public are not well informed.
There are a firm in Essex (bunch of wide boys) whom are selling these as solar thermal heat pumps. Neither the firm or any of the installers are MCS accrediated and AFAIK none of them have safe handling.
Trouble with companies such as the above is it gives all of us geninue MCS qualified people a bad name. They do so much long term damage to the industry.
It needs a call to Watchdog.
Watch this space.
There are a firm in Essex (bunch of wide boys) whom are selling these as solar thermal heat pumps. Neither the firm or any of the installers are MCS accrediated and AFAIK none of them have safe handling.
Trouble with companies such as the above is it gives all of us geninue MCS qualified people a bad name. They do so much long term damage to the industry.
It needs a call to Watchdog.
Watch this space.
I have started doing research into replacing our heating.
We currently have two Mexico boilers.
We have a 5 bedroom, 4 bathroom house, a 4m x 8m indoor pool and we work from home with two offices.
Our combined heating and gas bills are around £500 a month.
I was thinking about solar panels for electricity and hot water as we have a large expanse of south east facing roof with no obstructions.
But someone has suggested I look into thermodynamic panels.
Had a read of a few places on the interweb.
Nothing on Wikipedia about Thermodynamic Panels. Which doesn't bode well.
Some bold claims from some companies happy to sell you a system:
http://sunsourceenergy.co.uk/thermodynamic/domestic-central-heating/
and
http://www.greenserveuk.com/thermodynamics/
Is this technology maturing to the point where it's being accepted?
Says here
https://www.gov.uk/government/polic...supporting-pages/renewable-heat-incentive-rhi
that air source heat pumps are planned to be accepted into the RHI.
Since we run a business from home would we qualify for phase 1?
Irrespective of the benefits of the RHI, our energy bill is so ridiculous that I want to invest in as economical and green a solution as possible.
Got a bloke coming round to do a site visit to discuss the options next week.
We currently have two Mexico boilers.
We have a 5 bedroom, 4 bathroom house, a 4m x 8m indoor pool and we work from home with two offices.
Our combined heating and gas bills are around £500 a month.
I was thinking about solar panels for electricity and hot water as we have a large expanse of south east facing roof with no obstructions.
But someone has suggested I look into thermodynamic panels.
Had a read of a few places on the interweb.
Nothing on Wikipedia about Thermodynamic Panels. Which doesn't bode well.
Some bold claims from some companies happy to sell you a system:
http://sunsourceenergy.co.uk/thermodynamic/domestic-central-heating/
and
http://www.greenserveuk.com/thermodynamics/
Is this technology maturing to the point where it's being accepted?
Says here
https://www.gov.uk/government/polic...supporting-pages/renewable-heat-incentive-rhi
that air source heat pumps are planned to be accepted into the RHI.
Since we run a business from home would we qualify for phase 1?
Irrespective of the benefits of the RHI, our energy bill is so ridiculous that I want to invest in as economical and green a solution as possible.
Got a bloke coming round to do a site visit to discuss the options next week.
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Still, it can't be as mis-sold as Findus beef lasagne........
Still, it can't be as mis-sold as Findus beef lasagne........
If your message has a point, I've missed it.
I recently installed a pv stand alone system that supplied a twin coiled unvented cylinder and I must say I was impressed. I was very skeptical about the technology before this but it really did move me a step closer to buying into it. Maybe sort out your primary system and give yourself the option to add solar via a solar thermal enabled cylinder.
Wrong!
Many are fan assisted with the fan turning on to increase firing rate and off to lower firing rate.
Many are also fitted with lambda sensors to control the firing rate very precisely. The technology is on a par with gas boilers or any fossil fuel boiler and more advanced in many cases.
You should get up to speed on the technology and you wouldn't post duff advice mysteryman.
Do they light themselves now?
How can today's domestic wood furnaces be MORE advanced than today's domestic gas boilers? And how much needs to be spent on these systems in the first place? If they payed for their initial cost with the money saved on energy bills in a reasonable period of time, and the initial outlay wasn't so high, then maybe more people would buy into the technology.
Hi all
I have one of these systems installed in my house.
Have read through your comments regarding the panels and There seems to be a little confusion as to what they do and some installers call them SOLAR this is incorrect, as far as the technology works though it is basically a fridge in Reverse. Similar to an air source pump although it does not have the large fan on it.
I live in Scotland and the average temperature has been 1 - 2 degrees for some months now but my System has averaged 54 degrees every day, suprisingly the system works best when the temperature is below freezing or it is raining. (I'm not into the full technology so don't know why, although if anyone can enlighten me I am willing to listen)
The fact that most suppliers call it a SOLAR/Thermodynamic system leads to a lot of confusion, yes it utilises some solar power but works better when the sun is not shining on it so it is ideal for use on a north facing wall (they are not pretty but when you can get hot water at 54 degrees supplied for 1 -2p per day who am I to moan)
If anyone thinks I am a supplier or installer then then are definitely wrong I am a person that is seeing a new technology being slated because of people that do not understand it. (and that includes me, I don't understand it and don't care, but I do know it works)
Scotsplum
I have one of these systems installed in my house.
Have read through your comments regarding the panels and There seems to be a little confusion as to what they do and some installers call them SOLAR this is incorrect, as far as the technology works though it is basically a fridge in Reverse. Similar to an air source pump although it does not have the large fan on it.
I live in Scotland and the average temperature has been 1 - 2 degrees for some months now but my System has averaged 54 degrees every day, suprisingly the system works best when the temperature is below freezing or it is raining. (I'm not into the full technology so don't know why, although if anyone can enlighten me I am willing to listen)
The fact that most suppliers call it a SOLAR/Thermodynamic system leads to a lot of confusion, yes it utilises some solar power but works better when the sun is not shining on it so it is ideal for use on a north facing wall (they are not pretty but when you can get hot water at 54 degrees supplied for 1 -2p per day who am I to moan)
If anyone thinks I am a supplier or installer then then are definitely wrong I am a person that is seeing a new technology being slated because of people that do not understand it. (and that includes me, I don't understand it and don't care, but I do know it works)
Scotsplum
1-2p a day? You have your sums wrong.
Interesting!!
I thought I was the one with the unit and I get the bills.
I checked the reading one night and then again 24 hrs later and taking into acount the use of lighting and any other electric appliances I came up with with 1-2p per day.
I pay electric monthly and before the unit was installed would always find my payment was behind the electric costs in the winter, Now the unit is installed I am ahead by a small amount and this winter has been quite long and cold.
Actually how much does a fridge compressor cost to run it per day because that is all this unit needs to run it, Maybe when the unit gets older it will become less efficient and the cost will go up. I suppose the running costs depend on how efficient the compressor is and the cost of your electricity.
As a rough estimate I think I will have saved enough on the cost of Hot water generation to have paid for the unit within 6-7 years.
I thought I was the one with the unit and I get the bills.
I checked the reading one night and then again 24 hrs later and taking into acount the use of lighting and any other electric appliances I came up with with 1-2p per day.
I pay electric monthly and before the unit was installed would always find my payment was behind the electric costs in the winter, Now the unit is installed I am ahead by a small amount and this winter has been quite long and cold.
Actually how much does a fridge compressor cost to run it per day because that is all this unit needs to run it, Maybe when the unit gets older it will become less efficient and the cost will go up. I suppose the running costs depend on how efficient the compressor is and the cost of your electricity.
As a rough estimate I think I will have saved enough on the cost of Hot water generation to have paid for the unit within 6-7 years.
the compressor on my fridge is 135w so assuming yours is similar and running 50/50 thats 12x135 x 1.6 units at say 15p=24p
but off course your unit may be greater and run longer
what does the rating plate on the machine say ??
but off course your unit may be greater and run longer
what does the rating plate on the machine say ??
I cannot get into my Unit as the casing is sealed, any maintenance required is carried out by the company (at least while under guarantee 3 year) opening it voids the guarantee, once out of guarantee then any maintenance required would be a little problematic.
Apologies for not being of more help.
Scotsplum
Apologies for not being of more help.
Scotsplum
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