Are these walls structural? Depends how you interpret structural?

[wilco88]

Hi.

I want to take down/change some internal walls. Single leaf brick construction. The walls do not support the roof joists - it happens to be a bungalow if that makes any difference (attic is semi boarded). I want to prove to building standards (Scotland) that the walls are not structural.

There are no lintels above the internal door openings (the door frames themselves support the bricks above) - 1930's house.

I want to two two things:

1. I want to move one door opening in one of the walls in question and fill in the original opening left behind.
2. I want to take down most of another wall.

Photos and drawings attached.

Walls in question are yellow on 3d model.

BUT bear in mind that the walls in question DO NOT take any of the roof joist weight. There is a gap between the top of the wall and the underside of the joists. The joists are instead supported by timber hangers struts that attach to the rafters.

Without getting a surveyor/engineer in, do you think it is likely that the powers that be would agree that these walls are not structural/load bearing and that a building warrant wouldn't be necessary?

And if i sell.....will buyers lawyers want evidence that they werent load bearing?

 

[tony1851]

Scottish Building Regs will differ slightly from English regs, but in Part A (Structure) the Approved Document to the Eng. regs states:

"The ends of every wall should be bonded or otherwise securely tied throughout their full height to a buttressing wall, pier or chimney". (presumably there will be a similar provision in Scotland).

When you take out the yellow sections, there will be a wall whose ends are not laterally supported (though accepting that it is laterally supported in the middle).

On that small scale, structurally it would cause you no problems but - playing devil's advocate here - a pedantic inspector could decide otherwise and want justification.

Many people with a similar problem would just do it and forget about it; who's to know? Future buyer? Future-buyers' lawyer?

 

[wilco88]

Scottish Building Regs will differ slightly from English regs, but in Part A (Structure) the Approved Document to the Eng. regs states:

"The ends of every wall should be bonded or otherwise securely tied throughout their full height to a buttressing wall, pier or chimney". (presumably there will be a similar provision in Scotland).

When you take out the yellow sections, there will be a wall whose ends are not laterally supported (though accepting that it is laterally supported in the middle).

On that small scale, structurally it would cause you no problems but - playing devil's advocate here - a pedantic inspector could decide otherwise and want justification.

Many people with a similar problem would just do it and forget about it; who's to know? Future buyer? Future-buyers' lawyer?

Thanks Tony. I'll see if i can find the equivalent Scottish clause.

You're right, it's one of those ones where i could just do it and forget about it. But i don't want it re-appearing in the future.

 

[wessex101]

What is supporting the ceiling joists? or are they trussed rafters?

 

[wilco88]

What is supporting the ceiling joists? or are they trussed rafters?

Hi. The joists span outside wall to outside wall - approx 7m.

They are trussed rafters yes. Similar to attached. Without the hanger, purlin and binder.

And the ridge collar is lower down.

 

[wessex101]

Hi. The joists span outside wall to outside wall - approx 7m.

They are trussed rafters yes. Similar to attached. Without the hanger, purlin and binder.

And the ridge collar is lower down.

OK, if you are sure. But that doesn't sound like a trussed rafter roof and 7m is a long span.

 

[wilco88]

OK, if you are sure. But that doesn't sound like a trussed rafter roof and 7m is a long span.

Yup, 100% sure.

I'll try and get a drawing on here.

Another thing that makes me pretty confident that the interior walls aren't load bearing is that the ceiling lathe and plaster runs over the top of the walls! So any roof joist that happens to be 'bearing' on a wall is first bearing on lathe and plaster!

It's like they built the outside walls of the house, then put the roof joists and roof on. Then lathe and plastered the whole shell of the building, including ceilings. Then added in the internal walls!

???

 

[^woody^]

Trusses (offsite made) are invariably designed to span unsupported.

The other implication with wall removal is fire safety and escape routes and suchlike