Balancing system correctly

[AndrewSwansea]

Hi All

Have viewed the sticky on this but want some more opinions. Have a recently installed c.h.system with combi boiler on what I am guessing is a flow and return system. I have enclosed a rather crude diagram just so it may be easier to visualise. The boiler is situated in Bedroom 4 and all pipe runs are new, and go up through the attic and drop down through ceilings, hence why all rads are in same position on upper and ground floor level. All radiators get lovely and warm on the same TRV temperature setting, bar the radiator in the living room which is effectively the furthest away radiator from the boiler. It does get warm but as it is the main room we are in I want the heat from this one. I could crank up the main rad temp even higher on te boiler settings but this is false economy if the others are too hot and makes this one just warmer.

My questions are:

If I knock the TRV's on all other rads to a lower heat setting will this effectively mean more flow of hot water eventually reaches the living room rad? Or do I have to balance the system properly with the lockshield valves? If so which ones do I start off with to work my way across? Ie all top floor first and then ground floor?? Which way would I turn the lockshield valves to lessen the flow? Clockwise or anti-clockwise? I am hoping that I can sort of mimick this with the TRV's rather than getting a spanner out and mucking about..... Any advice greatfully received.

One other thing I thought of is maybe the boiler isnt strong enough to pump across but its a Vaillant Eco Pro (cant remember model number think its 28. But it should be more than enough I would have thought.

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[bengasman]

As it is a new boiler, it should be a condensing model which requires a temperature differential of 20 degrees between the flow and return. Although this is given on the flow and return of the boiler, it effectively means all the rads need to approach this value as close as possible to ensure you measure this at the boiler irrespective of how many rads are on. You must have a room thermostat in the main room, normally the living room and no trvs in that room. You restrict the flow per radiator with the lockshields and need accurate thermometers to do this. You will also need to do a performance test on the boiler to make sure the output is correct. Not to mention other safety tests like tightness test on the system.

 

[AndrewSwansea]

Ah right so not an easy job then for the unskilled ie me? It is a condensing combi boiler but I do not have a room thermostat in any of the rooms. This is probably due to the inept engineer who did the boiler, which also means I am now writing on a forum rather than asking him to come back to check it - not worth the effort anymore. There were numerous issues with leaking rad valves which his "boys" could never seem to fix without small weeps still being present.

I now have cover with SWALEC for central heating. This inspit of the 12month warranty on the boiler - could not risk anything going majorly wrong and not being able to get the heating engineer back out. Do you think they would come out on this (not on an emergency basis obviously) if I told them one of the rads was not working.

And how strict should they adhere to fitting a room thermostat in the main room rather than a TRV? Surely if this is a requirement he should have known this as a CORGI engineer?

Thanks for your response

 

[bengasman]

sounds like proper cowboy job. if you know who he is, contact corgi. it is illegal to install a boiler without a roomstat and the manufacturer could rightfully refuse to honour waranty.
did you verify that his claim to be corgi registered is correct? it is an old trick to use somebody else's registration.
corgi illegal gas work hotline: 0800 915 0491

 

[croydoncorgi]

TRVs are NOT a substitute for a room stat. Without one, even with all the rooms warm and all the TRVs closed, the boiler will continue to run, switching on and off by its own thermostat - complete waste of gas! Part L1B of Building Regs requires TRVs AND a room stat for each zone.

 

[AndrewSwansea]

Yes deffo Corgi as a small-medium sized firm not a one man band and I had documentation through from CORGi themselves after installation. A building regulation compliance document was sent to me.

Do you think it is now worth me contacting the CORGI customer services number on this document?

How difficult/cost would it now be to fit a room thermostat? I'm guessing wireless would be the easiest option now?

And this should definatly been installed right? No customer option about it?? He didnt even mention this to me so even if I had said no to it, by right he would have to have installed it as a requirement?

Thanks for this info guys!

 

[chrishutt]

Re the room stat, did the installer complete the Benchmark record? This is either a separate document or included at the back of the installation manual. It should have tick-boxes to record whether a room stat and timer were fitted, or a programmable room stat (the two functions combined). what did the installer tick?

 

[megawatt]

Bengasman wrote:

It is illegal to install a boiler without a roomstat

Oh really ... Perhaps you could enlighten us all as to what law is being broken.

MW

 

[Softus]

what law is being broken.

The Building Act 1984, via The Building (Amendment) Regulations 2001, SI 2001:3335, PART L CONSERVATION OF FUEL AND POWER.
______________

Edit: Moderator 5, kindly refrain from editing my posts - you have inferred something that wasn't intended.

 

[megawatt]

I'm sure Softus is aware of the relevant aspect of the legislation he has quoted...

I've added it below for those who may not be aware:

(d) providing sufficient information with the heating and hot water services so that building occupiers can operate and maintain the services in such a manner as to use no more energy than is reasonable in the circumstances.

The Act as legislated does NOT support prosecutions where room stats are not fitted ... Nor where rads are fitted in conservatories despite popular misconception.

If you can cite such a case where a successful prosecution has been brought Softus I'd be more than happy to concede your point of law.

Otherwise I put it to you that the Act does not form a legal obligation to the fitting of room stats as I stated earlier.

As it stands part L is pretty much unenforceable legally as it contains legal treacle such as Reasonable provision shall be made which could be argued either way.

MW

 

[Agile]

Mod 5, why dont you identify yourself and use a name like all friendly and "civil" people?

Rupert always uses his name which is why we like him so much ( particularly when he deletes the posts by Softus! ).

Tony

 

[megawatt]

If you're not taking sides Mod 5 why have you left Softus's edit and removed mine?

 

[Softus]

Otherwise I put it to you...

I'll say it once more, megawatt, since you seem to have forgotten, but then never again: I no longer correspond with you.

I posted the information above in an attempt to prevent other people from being misled, but I don't have the slightest interest in answering any of your questions. If you don't know why, then so be it, but I doubt that you're that dense. So go ahead and goad me, and abuse me, if that entertains you, but you will fail to provoke any response.

 

[AndrewSwansea]

Just found the manual etc, the commissioning report has not been filled in. I wasnt even aware of this form, but surely as it asks for a corgi number on it he should have done this as a matter of course??

I think a phonecall to corgi may be in order here regardless of what is

Incidentally on the benchmark checklist it does state "either/or" in relation to room stats and TRV's to comply

 

[megawatt]

Softus wrote:

I'll say it once more, megawatt, since you seem to have forgotten, but then never again: I no longer correspond with you.

Thanks for the update as I had, quite obviously, forgotten.

I posted the information above in an attempt to prevent other people from being misled

Very decent of you. Unfortunately, what you posted was, in fact, inaccurate so you had the opposite effect.

but I don't have the slightest interest in answering any of your questions. If you don't know why, then so be it, but I doubt that you're that dense.

Probably not If the interest isn't there I would agree with you that there would be no point responding ... Good call.

So go ahead and goad me, and abuse me, if that entertains you, but you will fail to provoke any response.

Oh dear, I really didn't think you were that sensitive Softus and have never meant to offend you with my posts ... A little goading maybe , I concede, but all I have ever intended was a little playful banter, nothing more sinister I assure you ... And certainly nothing more than you regularly express to others.

Anyway, never mind, I can live with being off your Xmas card list but I will continue to challenge your posts which I feel are inaccurate in the same way as I would with any other poster ... Not in the interests of being personal to you (unless you are being personal to others) but in the interests of forum accuracy to OP's which I'm sure you'd agree is in everyone's interests.

Thanks for letting me know that you won't respond to any of them though that's helpful ... It'll stop me fretting.

MW