Bathroom Electric Regs Questions

[ej3107]

Can anyone please advise what, if any, of the following would need to be certified by a Part P electrician, and what I could DIY? I've looked at zone diagrams and read lots of info but some of it seems contradictory and some confusing.

1) Replace a single ceiling pendant light fitting with 4 downlights. These would be IP65 rated downlights, the ceiling is 240cm high, but one of four the lights would be within 90cm of a shower head (horizontally, not vertically, and outside the shower enclosure).

2) Replace a SELV extractor fan with a 240v fan. Due to remodelling, the fan location is no longer in any 'zone' so I'd like something more powerful that actually removes moisture. I would remove the old fan and its wiring from the transformer in the loft and wire in the new one. There is currently no isolation switch for the fan, and it is on a lighting circuit that is not RCD protected. I don't think this matters if changing like for like, but strictly would this still class as like for like?

3) Adding a shaver socket into a cupboard, spurred from the lighting circuit. Not within any zone, lighting circuit not RCD protected. This is a 'nice to have' and I'd probably only bother if I had to get an electrician in for either or both of the first two anyway.


Thanks in advance.

 

[flameport]

Work outside of zones is not notifiable.
240cm high ceiling is outside of the zones. Distance to the shower head is unrelated.

 

[EFLImpudence]

2) Replace a SELV extractor fan with a 240v fan. Due to remodelling, the fan location is no longer in any 'zone'

240V fans are allowed in Zones 1 and 2 - if stated as suitable by the manufacturer, IPX4 or better.

There is currently no isolation switch for the fan

Isolating switches are not required by the regulations.

, and it is on a lighting circuit that is not RCD protected. I don't think this matters if changing like for like, but strictly would this still class as like for like?

No such thing as "like for like"; the word used is "replacements".

 

[JohnW2]

No such thing as "like for like"; the word used is "replacements".

... and just as well - since, by the time things need replacement, it is commonly the case that replacements identical to the original are no longer available!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ej3107]

So the suggestions are that this is not notifiable and as "replacements" I am not altering circuits either, so lack of RCD protection doesn't *need* addressing.

I found this similar thread though that seemed like no RCD would be an issue that needed addressing without earth bonding in the bathroom:

Bathroom refit, RCD?

Lo all, Doing a bathroom refit, it already has downlights and a extractor fan. These are currently not RCD protected. Downlights will be replaced with new ip65 fire rated downlights, same places as old, so I'm guessing (without looking) same cables can be used. Extractor in ceiling...

www.diynot.com

 

[EFLImpudence]

I found this similar thread though that seemed like no RCD would be an issue that needed addressing without earth bonding in the bathroom:

Well, not really, it is not a personal choice - one or the other.

Supplementary bonding in the bathroom has always been required (if required electrically). RCDs (and a couple of other requirements) alter the characteristics such that the bonding is not necessary.

Nowadays the RCDs are required regardless, so...

 

[ej3107]

Well, not really, it is not a personal choice - one or the other.

Supplementary bonding in the bathroom has always been required (if required electrically). RCDs (and a couple of other requirements) alter the characteristics such that the bonding is not necessary.

Nowadays the RCDs are required regardless, so...

So where does this leave me if the lighting circuit has no RCD and I can see no supplementary bonding to any bathroom pipes? If I do nothing, it stays as it has for years. If I replace a fitting, am I mandated to then address the lack of RCD? This is why it's confusing, because it seems so cryptic.

 

[EFLImpudence]

So where does this leave me if the lighting circuit has no RCD and I can see no supplementary bonding to any bathroom pipes?

Impossible to tell from the internet.
Maybe it is not required; it is quite a complicated subject - not simply a question of looking.

If I do nothing, it stays as it has for years. If I replace a fitting, am I mandated to then address the lack of RCD? This is why it's confusing, because it seems so cryptic.

I would say you are not mandated to fit RCDs when fitting replacements.

 

[ericmark]

Forget the law, protect yourself and family. Today the modern RCBO can fit in most modern consumer units (CU) so no big deal retro fitting them.

In theory the consumer unit can only be populated with items approved by the manufacturer, and since there is no standard on the distance between the DIN rail and the bus bar, this makes a lot of sense, also the hole in the lid, but before you worry about lighting without RCD protection, check to see how hard it would be to have the lights on a RCBO.

There are other methods, the RCD FCU is one, in the main bathrooms tend to be upstairs, so a RCD FCU in loft is easy enough.

Yes each edition of the wiring regulations says when new designs must comply with it, it does not matter the date installed, it is the design date that counts. However you need to consider if the design has changed? If we fit LED lamps into a lamp holder designed for a tungsten lamp, are we changing the design? It would be for the courts to decide, and personally I don't want to be involved with a test case, or to find due to a test case, what I have has been now been identified as not permitted.

It it turns out that you can't easy put RCD protection on lights, then yes look to if really required, but look at the easy methods first, and protect yourself and family even if not required by law.

 

[JohnW2]

Forget the law, protect yourself and family.

As a concept, I can't really disagree with that.

Yes each edition of the wiring regulations says when new designs must comply with it, it does not matter the date installed, it is the design date that counts. However you need to consider if the design has changed? If we fit LED lamps into a lamp holder designed for a tungsten lamp, are we changing the design? It would be for the courts to decide, and personally I don't want to be involved with a test case, or to find due to a test case, what I have has been now been identified as not permitted.

I think you worry far too much about court cases that are almost certainly never going to happen. The only way in which such a case could ever get to court would be if someone had come to harm. and if the work in question had not resulted in the electrical installation becoming any less safe than it had been before the work (often quite the contrary), then I would certainly hope that no sensible court would find against the person who had done the work.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

..... The only way in which such a case could ever get to court would be if someone had come to harm. and if the work in question had not resulted in the electrical installation becoming any less safe than it had been before the work (often quite the contrary), then I would certainly hope that no sensible court would find against the person who had done the work.

I could perhaps have added ... if it were not a "sensible court", then the fact that electrical work (which did not decrease safety) had been undertaken would presumably be irrelevant - i.e. in the absence of any work having been done, they could use the same approach to convict someone for NOT having made the electrical installation safer than it was (always had been) - which, provided the installation would once have been regarded as satisfactory/safe, is contrary to the UK's approach to electrical installations.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ej3107]

I've got to admit, I'm slightly baffled. Maybe the best option is getting an electrician in to put the lighting circuit on an RCD and then I'll sort the fan and downlights out.

 

[JohnW2]

I've got to admit, I'm slightly baffled. Maybe the best option is getting an electrician in to put the lighting circuit on an RCD and then I'll sort the fan and downlights out.

Having the lighting circuit protected by an RCD or RCBO would certainly be considered by most people to be desirable (from the point of view of 'safety'). However, like EFLI, I don't personally think that undertaking 'replacements' (of fan and/or lights) would actually make it 'mandatory' to upgrade the circuit to have RCD/RCBO protection - but others may argue about that!

Kind Regards, John