Best option going forward. Install cert.

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Hi guys.

Looking for some advice on whats best to do regards signing off electrical work.

I have rewired my house while plasterboarding and decorating. All to regs. All wiring is in safe zones, in capping at the correct heights, hard wired interlinked smokes and heat detectors. Usual dual rcd with an incoming tn-s supply and an old magnetic type meter.

I am confident in my location, wiring lengths and sizes are well within specs and final rings are well balanced. All cables are numbered at the cu for future ease.

Onto the issue.

I thought i could get it passed by building control myself but didnt fully understand the process. The work is done but i should of already informed beforehand. Too late!

Currently the consumer unit is plastic and needs to be bought up to 17th requirements. Is this the best chance i have of getting an install cert done? Get a self certable sparky to swap the units over?

Other option is a period inspection but not sure what this will do worst case if i were to sell up in years to come?
 
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What were your test results? Whats was or is the ZE? ZS on Ring Finals? Trip times on RCDs?
 
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Hi chivers67

Unfortunatly no megger tester so its not been done. It needs a full test.

Basic tests have been done with a fluke multi meter to make sure nothings got the wrong polarity or any broken connections
 
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The OP's work can never be certified now.

Certification for a replacement distribution board will certify the replacement of the distribution board only - it cannot and will not certify the rest of the work. That simply is not possible.

The only way for the installation to be certified is for it to be rewired.
 
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I figured that wasgoing to be the response. Probably best to just get it safety tested then instead.

Pants.
 
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The OP's work can never be certified now.

Certification for a replacement distribution board will certify the replacement of the distribution board only - it cannot and will not certify the rest of the work. That simply is not possible.

The only way for the installation to be certified is for it to be rewired.

But surely the wiring will be tested and inspected prior to its connection to the new board???
 
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But surely the wiring will be tested and inspected prior to its connection to the new board???
No. Concealed cables cannot possibly be inspected.

Inspection and testing before connecting to the new DB are simply to ensure that ADS will operate as intended with the new protective devices. The installer of the new DB is in no way taking ownership of the existing installation.

The scope of work identified on the certificate will clearly state that it relates only to the installation of the new DB, and likewise the Schedule of Inspections will relate only to that work. (Therefore I would expect large parts of this to be marked "N/A".)

Essentially you are verifying that the existing installation does not impair the safety of the alteration that you have carried out, and nor has the alteration impaired the safety of the existing installation. That is what is required by BS7671 and is all that is being verified, along with a declaration that the installation of the new DB complies with BS7671. (Note this is not declaring compliance of the existing circuits. How can it? The DB installer wasn't there when they were installed to know how they were installed.)
 
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It is down to your local authority building control, they can issue a completion certificate, however they can't issue an installation certificate, only you can issue that, where the problem arises is getting the LABC inspector to accept your installation certificate, they may accept an EICR done by some one they trust, or themselves, but it is totally at the discretion of the inspector.

Clearly step one is to complete the installation certificate, telling the inspector,
Unfortunatly no megger tester so its not been done. It needs a full test.

Basic tests have been done with a fluke multi meter to make sure nothings got the wrong polarity or any broken connections
is not going to impress an inspector, you have to make him believe you have the skill required, and if I was the inspector I would select some random circuits and test, then see if readings match yours.

I have once used the LABC to get the completion certificate, as with you job started before I contacted him, we had employed a building firm to install a wet room, we argued with them and they walked off site, since social services involved we decided it should be done correct, so I contacted the LABC and said we would be taking over the job.

It seems the building firm had not applied to LABC and we were told in no uncertain terms it is the house owner who must inform them, although most builders do it for the house owner, it is up to the owner to ensure it is done. At this point I wished I had not told them, however because the work was for my mothers disability there was no charge. He seemed to think the RSJ was OK, and drains were OK, he missed that the lintel for door way was only supported on one side. He also missed the spacing was wrong for loo, then came Part P, that was only bit I was not worried about.

So the three test meters were sitting there for him to see, he wanted us to get a firm in to do a PIR as it was called then, however since my dad, my son, and myself were all electricians we felt we should be able to write out our own installation certificate, my son was a sole trader at the time, so had insurance, so we wanted him to sign the certificate, however the LABC inspector did not seem to know what a C&G2391 was, and was unwilling to allow my son to sign the certificate, my son said well if you want us to get some one in he must be better qualified than us, and my dad has a degree, so with some reluctance he said he would allow me to inspect and test, and if the reading were within limits he would issue a completion certificate.

So I tested and inspected, and sent in the installation certificate and about a week latter I got a completion certificate in the post, the council did not even look at the job once finished.

Since then whole house was rewired, but I was in a hurry, so got a firm in to do it. Also had the kitchen re-wired before that, and looking at the two compliance certificates and the completion certificates there seems to be no cross reference to show which installation certificate they refer to, so in real terms how any house buyer would know I really don't know, but I suppose there must be a record some where!

The insulation resistance meter is cheap enough, I got one for around £35, however it does not do low ohms, the loop impedance and RCD tester however are more expensive, I have been surprised how many new RCD's fail, in the main it seems due to strain from cables, slack off cables and re-torque up and they have passed OK, but clearly they do need testing.

Although it says you can find the ELI at origin by enquiry, the measure the cable resistance, what you want is when the inspector uses his meter, for him to have same results as you, so really you do need a loop impedance meter.

Of course if you get an EICR done then they will record the readings, and you could then cheat and transfer all readings to your installation certificate, however that will likely mean having the EICR done twice, one to get your readings, and one for council to get readings. So likely same money to buy meters as to get EICR done, so you just have to buy or hire meters. I tried to hire meters, however it seems they need calibrating after every hire, so not cheap to hire.

I know mothers house was not re-wired perfect, I would not think any house is perfect, so an inspector will likely find fault, this can work out expensive, as then you need to pay for another inspection, it could be some thing really daft, like brown sleeving missing where blue wire used as line. And the inspector can demand that work is exposed for testing and inspection, I know I have used rods to thread cables under floor boards, however also know the cables should be clipped.

So your at the whim of the inspector, he may use common sense, or he may be a jobs worth guy. I was lucky mine when though OK.

As to having a CU changed and getting a certificate for that, well it's down to who buys the house, they may be conned, or they may realise.

However if you get it wrong, then who knows what will happen? I read the court cases with interest, it seems people who have made errors can get away scot free when they don't have training, so electricians mate doing inspection and testing and getting it wrong got away with it, it was his foreman who got the prison sentence, so if some one accepts your work, and you don't have some qualification to show you have the ability, then the person who accepts your work could find themselves in jail if you have made an error. So reverse the situation, would you sign your name to work which could result in jail if you don't need to?

So real terms, either tell the LABC and do what they ask, or get an EICR done and hope nothing goes wrong, the point is it may not even be your workmanship which is wrong, with the foreman who ended up in jail, a plasterer had put a nail through cable, a plumber had not glued the pipe on a tun dish, and an immersion thermostat did not have a cut out fitted, and the boy friend told the woman to turn water off before the electric, it took all these faults to kill her, but court decided it was the foreman's fault for using unskilled labour to press a button on a test meter and rely on him putting down actual reading and not fudge up some results.
 
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Inspection and testing before connecting to the new DB are simply to ensure that ADS will operate as intended with the new protective devices. The installer of the new DB is in no way taking ownership of the existing installation.
I would hope a lot more of a decent electrician, and personally would not consider employing one whose pre-CU-change I&T was restricted to "ensuring that ADS will operate as intended".

Kind Regards, John
 
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Excuse my silly question, but I’ve rewired my entire house, garage and shed over the 28 years that I have been living here. Last bit if wiring was the kitchen in 2001. Haven’t had any problems but I suppose I always could but what is all this about certificates and, for instance, how would that affect me if I was going to sell my house in say, 5 years time? For all anyone knows, the wiring could be the same as what was here when I moved in in 1990.
 
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Last bit if wiring was the kitchen in 2001.
Then if you sell the house you can truthfully answer 'No' to any questions about whether work needing Building Control approval has been done.

You should still discuss with your solicitor whether you should declare the work on the TA6 form.


For all anyone knows, the wiring could be the same as what was here when I moved in in 1990.
I doubt there has ever been a house as old as yours sold with a full set of electrical certificate(s) covering all the electrical work done in the it since it was built.

Buyers ask questions, get surveys done, and decide if the house as it is is worth the price you are asking.
 
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Then if you sell the house you can truthfully answer 'No' to any questions about whether work needing Building Control approval has been done.......

So when did this building control approval come in - I had a builder remove a supporting wall and fit an RSJ in 2001 when the kitchen was made into a kitchen/diner. He didn't notify anyone as far as I know and it hasn't fallen down. Yet!
 
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Right. Thanks guys for the replys. Its crap to be in this position as i had someone to sort it in the first place but things change and people fall out.

I have herd all sorts about going the building control route. Worrys me they will want every single thing pulled back up. A lot of work down the drain. So yes i have some regret. The house was unsafe electrically when we moved in on 70s wiring with some overload and didnt have the 3.2k needed at the time.

I have access to a low ohms RS meter or might be able to borrow the megger tester from work for a day.

Hard choice on what way to go about it. Kinda thinking just eicr.

As for underfloor cable cliping i am guilty of fish wire feeding in places but i have hooked them over where the old wiring on the long runs. Is there anything specific i should of used?

Whats the idea behind this?
 
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So when did this building control approval come in
We've had some form of controls over how people build since 1189.

National building regulations as we know them began in 1963 in Scotland, and 1965 in E&W - before then they were all local.

Electrical work was brought into the scope of the Building Regulations in 2005.


I had a builder remove a supporting wall and fit an RSJ in 2001 when the kitchen was made into a kitchen/diner. He didn't notify anyone as far as I know
That work would have required approval. Another item to discuss with your solicitor if you are ever filling in a TA6, or any of its subsequent replacements.

Remember that the Misrepresentation Act 1967 moves the burden of proof of misrepresentation from buyer to seller. This means it isn’t up to the buyer to prove you knowingly lied on the form, it’s up to you to prove you didn’t if they make a claim against you. Misrepresentation can be fraudulent (i.e. deliberate), or done through negligence or even innocence.


and it hasn't fallen down. Yet!
He obviously knew what he was doing - you're well past the time limit where you could be prosecuted, there's clearly no need for any enforcement action, and no buyer should be concerned that it isn't safe - as you say, if it wasn't then you'd have found that out by now.
 
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