Bloody Apologists!!

[Big_Spark]

One other useless fact for you-----Chamberlins goverment actually gave the Japanese the blue prints for the Spitfire as they wanted Japan to make thousands for us for the coming war with Germany---just as well Churchill booted that idiot out isnt it????

Freddie, I agree with your other comments in this thread, however I must comment on this last piece. Chanberlain NEVER gave plans for the Spitfire to the Japs, Chamberlain was one of the main proponents of Economic sanctions against the Japanese in the mid to late '30's as he sincerely hoped that it would force them to talk and solve some of the problems in the Pacific basin.

Chamberlain was not an idiot, he was slightly nieve and perhaps blinded by his experineces in WW1, and he was not alone in this. Never forget, Chamberlain was the one who issued the ultimatum to Hitler, and it was he who declared war on Germany, and it was he that sent 320,000 British Troops and Airmen to France between Sept 1939 and May 1940..

I won't go into the causes of the fiasco in France as it is getting seriously off topic, but Chamberlain resigned of his own volition, Churchill had nothing to do with it, and if you read Churchills memoirs, you will see that he did not agree with Chamberlain standing down, although I think History shows it was the right decision at the time.

 

[Freddie]

Strange that cause in the 1930's Britain was an Allie

 

[Freddie]

ok i agree

 

[Big_Spark]

They've apologised enough.

The Japanese PM apologised to British PoWs for the hardships they suffered in WW2, 5 or 6 years ago IIRC.

Since WW2 they have also made countless apologies for their behaviour in asian countries, and for their equivalent of the Joy Division.

They are also not allowed to participate in offensive military actions, and are only allowed to work in a defensive or peace-keeping role.

Now, the atrocities committed in the war, for instance the Nanking Massacre as you mentioned, were some of the most gory and debucherous acts and it is hard to forgive those responsible. However, those responsible are dead. Long dead. Not in power. Dead. Do you expect every new German Chancellor to apologise for the war and for the Holocaust? Of course not. Do you feel uneasy that Germany has a sizable armed forces? Probably not.

If you want Japan to apologise for Nanking now, then as a proudly-part-Welshman I want an apology from England regarding their actions against Wales and the Welsh people from the 13th century until the mid 20th-century. I also think all pagans are owed one from the Catholic Church regarding their backing of the holocaust of the pagan Britons in the Dark Ages.

The slave trade in centuries gone by was run largely by white Britons and West Africans. So, by your logic that means most white people and a sizable portion of black people in the UK today are responsible for the slave trade. But would you feel obliged to apologise for the actions of people 300 years ago, simply because they were of the same nationality as you are now?

I agree that people shouldn't moan about Hiroshima and Nagasaki: it is argued that ending the war then saved many more lives than the bombs killed. But in the same breath as telling them to stuff it up their a**e, I would also say that Japan has apologised enough. It's time to move on.

For chrissakes, the French sent their flagship to a Trafalgar celebration.

Adam, with respect mate, your talking balderdash (trying not to swear here)

Please read this quote..

The Japanese people and nation have never fully accepted responsibility for the unspeakable atrocities that they perpetrated against helpless innocent civilians during the last war. Note the comments in recent years from numerous Japanese leaders questioning the substance of accounts of war time atrocities related by war survivors, or even whether the cruelty and brutality ever occurred at all!
That is all very disturbing to Japan's neighbours. Would Israel ever forgive Germany if German leaders openly questioned whether the events of the Holocaust ever occurred? Never! The Japanese have always sought to whitewash or excuse their acts by describing their brutality as "liberating" Asians from their colonial masters. The recent books and photographs on the infamous Rape of Nanking show the brutality of the Japanese against their helpless civilian captives and the pure delight that they took in genocide for its own sake. Photographs do not lie. The twin issues at hand are forgiveness and trust.
Forgiveness looks to the past, while trust, the future. Unless the Japanese people as a nation, whether through their emperor, their government, or otherwise, categorically and collectively take responsibility for their abominable acts during the last war and apologise as a people to the world for their past misdeeds, they will never be forgiven for the past, or trusted in the future. Tony Blair is therefore wrong in saying that in demanding an apology, we are only harping on the past without any regard for the future. Without a clear and unequivocal apology from Japan, there will be no forgiveness and no trust, two sentiments that affect both our collective memory of the past and the way we will deal with Japan in the future. The ball is therefore in Japan's court.

Or this one

Hiroaki Ikeda, Japan

The majority of young Japanese don't even know what atrocities were committed against fellow Asians and POWs as their history books are doctored to show a different story. To some extent the Allies are to blame for this as they failed to hunt down Japanese War Criminals with the same fervour as they did German ones. Nor were pictures of these atrocities shown to the population at the end of the War. Neither has there been a Japanese-equivalent of Simon Wiesenthal to chase the 'small fry'. It seems because it was yellow versus yellow and not white against white that the Allies turned a blind eye. The younger generation must be shown what their elders have done before the rest of Asia and the World can start to forgive.

or this

New Document Reveals Japanese Troops Used Poison Gas in China
(14/6/98)
TOKYO (AP) -- Japanese troops used poison gas against Chinese military forces during World War II, a Japanese newspaper reported Sunday, citing government documents on war crimes trials held in China.

The Japanese Foreign Ministry documents released Saturday include reports on a postwar Chinese court verdict which found a Japanese military officer guilty of ordering the use of poison gas on a northern China battlefield in May of 1942, the Mainichi newspaper reported.

The reports detail the outcome of a war crimes trial held in communist China from 1946 to 1949, the paper said.

Japan has said its wartime army manufactured and stored poison gas in China, but it has not acknowledged that any chemical weapons were actually used. China has said Japan used poison gas 2,900 times during World War II, killing thousands Chinese soldiers and civilians.

As a signatory of last year's Chemical Weapons Convention treaty banning chemical weapons, Japan has agreed to clean up stockpiles of poison gas which were abandoned in China by the former Imperial Japanese Army.

The Associated Press

Oh, and as for the "apology"

Japan to Officially Apologise to WWII POWs?
(12/1/98)
TOKYO, Jan 12 (Reuters) - Japan told British Prime Minister Tony Blair on Monday it would issue an official apology for the suffering of victims of World War Two including British prisoners of war, a British spokesman told reporters.

He said Prime Minister Ryutaro Hashimoto told Blair his entire cabinet had agreed to issue ``an expression of deep remorse and heartfelt apology to the people who suffered in the Second World War.''

Blair raised the issue of the prisoners of war with Hashimoto ahead of a visit to Britain by Emperor Akihito in May which both governments felt could be affected by the unresolved problem.

The British spokesman said Japan also agreed to a plan under which the two governments would jointly finance visits to World War Two battlefields and cemeteries in Asia by veterans of both armies.

Japan also promised to pay for a programme of scholarships to Japanese schools to allow grandchildren of British POWs to study in Japan for a year, and to expand an existing programme of visits by grandchildren.

A previous apology in 1995 by then Prime Minister Tomiichi Murayama was seen as insufficient by the POWs and by Asian countries invaded by the Japanese because it did not have full government backing and only represented the p[ersonal view of the Prime Minister. The former prisoners have been demanding an apology and compensation for their ordeals.

Chinese demand Apology for Attrocities
(17/04/03)

TOKYO, Jan 12 (Reuters) - The Chinese have again demanded full recognition of the atrocities committed by Japanese Forces following the invasion of Manchuria and China in 1931 as earlier promises of such a public apology have not been forthcoming. POW groups from around the world have echoed this demand as they still await their formal apology that was promised almost 5 years ago ahead of a visit by Empereor Akihito to Britain in 1999.

A spokesman for the Chinese Government said in a news conference today "If the Japanese Nation wishes to move on and take a full part in world affairs, then they must acknowledge the actions of their troops between 1931 and 1945. Since 1945 their academics have sought to paint a picture of a nation that was defending itself against outside agressors, this is not historically accurate and must not be allowed to continue. It will soon be 60 years since the end of the War, and the Japanese Nation has once again reneged on earlier promises to make formal and public apologies for their treatment of Chinese Citizens and the prisoners of war they held from Allied Nations."

The Japanese Ambassador to Beijing refused to comment on the press conference stating he could not make any comment without first discussing it with the Japanese Prime Minister.

So far not official statement has been forthcoming from the Japanese

I think that lot clears this matter up nicely Adam, would you not agree. The apology you speak of was not official, it was not from the Nip Government and was not from that **** they call an Emperor.

Also, why do they call him an Empereor if they have no Imperialistic ambitions..he would be a King. He was only called an Emperor after the Japanese started to invade other nations, just as Victoria was called Empress by the British.

 

[Big_Spark]

Adam, just found this too...

China warns Japanese academics over massacre denial
(17/6/04)
BEIJING, June 15 (AFP) - China on Monday hit out at a group of Japanese academics who denied that the 1937 rape of Nanjing took place and warned there was plenty of evidence of the massacre.

"There are mountains of irrefutable proof of the war crimes, including the rape of Nanjing, committed by the Japanese militarists during their invasion of China," a Foreign Ministry spokesman said.

"Any denial or distortion of the war crimes commited by the invading Japanese militarists is without foundation and will be rejected by all people who respect justice," he added.

A group of Japanese academics said Friday in Tokyo they had discovered no evidence of a massacre of Chinese civilians by Japanese troops in December 1937 in Nanjing.

China says 300,000 civilians were massacred when Japanese troops embarked on an orgy of destruction, pillage, rape and murder after taking Nanjing in 1937.

The Allied powers' Tokyo trial of Japanese war criminals determined that 140,000 people were killed. Japanese authorities have never offered a figure for the death toll.

Akira Nakamura, a professor of history at Dokkyo University, said: "Civic life in the city actually improved after the Japanese Imperial Army entered there."

"China and the Japanese media only look into the 'dark' side of the Nanjing incident and I would like you to see its 'light' side," Nakamura told reporters.

Fujioka Nobukatsu, a professor of education at Tokyo University, said Japanese soliders took good care of Chinese citizens after they entered the capital.

"I would be very cautious in using the term 'massacre' or 'holocaust' to describe what had happed in Nanjing at that time," he said.

Nakamura said the most authentic record on the number of murdered civilians in Nanjing was made by US sociologist Louis Smiles, who said in 1938 that no more than 2400 civilians were killed.

However German sources in the city at the time of the Massacre gave evidence in 1945 that at least 24,300 civilians were killed in 1938 and another 73,500 dispaced by the Japanese troops. The figures quoted by the Nobukatsu and Smiles have been shown, on numerous occasions, to only represent those who committed suicide after being raped by Japanese troops.

The Chinese have warned the Japanese Government to acknowledge the atrocities committed in China and the wider Pacific theatre as they still have not recieved a formal apology. Sources in the Chinese Government have hinted that China may seek economic sanctions against Japan in the UN if no apology is forthcoming.

 

[securespark]

Well, I've read the whole kaboosh and I side with Adam, at least from the apologising POV.

Cheques made payable to Secure Electrical Services, Adam. Quick as you like!!

 

[Freddie]

Well, I've read the whole kaboosh and I side with Adam, at least from the apologising POV.

Cheques made payable to Secure Electrical Services, Adam. Quick as you like!!

Well if me or anybody ever came across you or yours in peril for any reason your answer gives us the inclination to walk right on by leave you to your fate, we could always say a half hearted sorry afterwards.

You basically said all those deaths dont matter and the criminals are ok to get away with it

 

[Big_Spark]

Before the outbreak of war, considerable interest in buying Spitfires or arranging licence production had been shown by many foreign countries, including Japan. In the event, only one example was flown to the French before war dictated that all future production would be earmarked for the RAF. Orders placed before September 1939 amounted to 1,160 to be built by Supermarine with a further 1,000 to be produced by the Nuffield organisation

Freddie, I have a done a hunt for such information, largely without success however I did find this on the RAF webiste.

In 1938 the Air Ministry recieved a number of expressions of interest from friendly Governments, these included the Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, South Africans, Americans and an unwelcome inquiry from the Japanese. Many of the nations later recieved Spitfires of several varients and most saw action during WWII. However the Japanese were disapointed as Chamberlain refused permission for any branch of the UK Military to have any dealings with the Japanese. Recent reports of the events in Nanking, later known as the rape of Nanking, had become public and feelings were running high. It was felt that to sell arms to a beligerant nation, in defiance of League of Nation agreements would be risking alliances that had been established in China and many other Pacific Nations, but especially those in the United States who had actively sought such embargoes.

 

[nstreet]

Oilman, please tell me something the Japanese Nation has done for the world that can possibly excuse or make up for their butchery between 1931 and 1945?

What happened cannot be excused or made up for as you put it, but it was a world war, things like this happen, as can be seen from the evidence of the Iraq conflict. I'm sure that we brits did some things that were inexcusable, but we probably don't hear about it, we killed lots of people also.

Its pointless to keep dredging up the past, what's done is done and nothing is going to change that. The only thing we can influence is the future and for the better I hope.

 

[jasy]

MESSAGE TO OILMAN. i read your reply to Mr FWL Engineer and not only do i think it disgusting but i believe you should apologise on here not only to us but also to those living and dead who suffered at the hands of a previously murderous race of people.

 

[Thermo]

just a couple of points.

although japan has apologised for certain atrocities in a stunted manner, it has never truely dealt with the matter of compensation for pows. It has never dealt with the apology or compensation for the korean comfort girls. This year there was uproar in china as japan altered its school text books to hide the true extent of its atrocities. Deny history and you deny the future.

The bottom line is the aliies and the axis forces were involved in absolute and total war. everything was geared towards this and trying to win the war. The japanese lost over 100,000 and the americans 14000 in the battle fo okinawa. thats not far off the hiroshima totals. there is no doubt that if the mainland of japan had been invaded the death toll would have been much muh higher. So time for an apology from the allies for dropping the bombs? no, that time will and should never come

 

[Freddie]

Oilman, please tell me something the Japanese Nation has done for the world that can possibly excuse or make up for their butchery between 1931 and 1945?

What happened cannot be excused or made up for as you put it, but it was a world war, things like this happen, as can be seen from the evidence of the Iraq conflict. I'm sure that we brits did some things that were inexcusable, but we probably don't hear about it, we killed lots of people also.

Its pointless to keep dredging up the past, what's done is done and nothing is going to change that. The only thing we can influence is the future and for the better I hope.

It is not dredging up the past because its still with us-----the people who survived their abuse had their tax money spent rebuilding Japan where they got nothing, and when Japan was in a position to pay she offered nothing.

Today one country that Japan abused terribly is very strong and hasnt forgot what Japan did, and now Japan wants us to protect her.

Japans population born after the war still do not know today what her parents and grandparents did as that part of her history has been carefully rewritten.

 

[Big_Spark]

What happened cannot be excused or made up for as you put it, but it was a world war, things like this happen, as can be seen from the evidence of the Iraq conflict. I'm sure that we brits did some things that were inexcusable, but we probably don't hear about it, we killed lots of people also.

Its pointless to keep dredging up the past, what's done is done and nothing is going to change that. The only thing we can influence is the future and for the better I hope.

Nstreet, How dare you compare what the Allies did and what the Japanese did, of course innocent civilians got caught up in the fighting, the bombing of cities to hit industry in an age of inaccurate aerial bombing was inevitably going to result in civilian deaths. However for you to even make that statement smacks of a total lack of knowledge of the reality of the events that occured during those dark years.

Further, I would point out that many attrocities occured between 1931 and 1941, prior to Japan being involved in the greater war. Estimates by the UN give a figure of 22 Million deaths at the hands of the Japanese between their invasion of Manchuria in 1931, and thier attack on pearl Harbour in December 1941.

Many estimate the real figure at up to twice this, the Chimese opften cite a figure of nearly 30 million for their nation and Manchuria alone.

What the Japanese did makes the Nazi's look like amateurs. The Germans did some god awful things, but the vast bulk of the German nation would have opposed the death Camps had they known about them, what they could have done is another matter. There was an underground movement in germany to oppose the Nazi's, it was very large, but the gestapo kept it in check. In Japan no such movement existed, many of the Prison Camps on the Japanese Mainleand had Civilian Guards who also brutalised the prisoners, Japanese Doctors often refuse to help POW patients and often left them to die of curable injuries and illnesses.

On Okimawa, thousands of japanese Civilians committed suicide reather than be defeated. You need to remember that in Japan, the people are the nation, they are inseperable in a psychological sense, and they view their Emperor as a Living God, so what he says goes without question.

If the Emperor then had said that all Japanese must **** at 9.09am on the 5th August 1942, then you can be damned sure they would have done.

People talk about japanese culture, and there are some aspects that are good, but blind adherance to a doctrine is fatal, Germany did it for a short while and paid a heavy price, the Japanese have been doing it for at least 500 years, and they still fail to learn the lessons of History.

You state that we cannot change the past, and this is very true, but you say that we can only influence the future, however when Japan actively, and with Government and public support changes it's history books to erase the events they took part in then they are denying the truth and the world is unable to move on to a united future as those countries the Japanese need to deal with will not do so whilst they spout bull and refuse a true and heartfelt apology, until then it is an open wound for more than 30 countries and millions of people.

 

[supersparks]

seems to be a lot of people here forgetting what a generation or 2/3 ago paid so we could be free.

until japan appologises, and compensates every pow, alive or dead(to their family/a good cause/world charity so they dont have to come on tv and play the sympathy card or hell....what about OUR nhs and the tax payers money which paid to rebuild japan....), i dont think the issue should be forgotten or we should "move on"

 

[Freddie]

i agree